HUMPHRYS: Andrew MacKay, do you accept that even if the review does fail, if there is no great breakthrough, that the talking will have to go on? ANDREW MACKAY: Oh, most definitely and I was pleased to see the Secretary of State saying that. He as new Secretary of State has got to take a long hard look at what's happened so far, what's worked, what hasn't worked. I'd like to see the Assembly continue, I'd like to see an executive set up even if it doesn't include Sinn Fein IRA so that the people of Northern Ireland through their elected representatives can actually help run the province. HUMPHRYS: Are there any circumstances you can envisage in which the executive would be set up to include Sinn Fein without weapons actually being handed over? MACKAY: I don't believe so. I'd like to see Sinn Fein moved into the democratic process and taking up their ministerial positions, but you can't have people who've refused to disarm and are continuing acts of violence across the province on the one hand, holding ministerial office on the other. So we have always strongly supported David Trimble and the Unionists in saying that they can only jump together, in other words become ministers at the same time as decommissioning properly takes place. It could be unthinkable for anything else to happen. HUMPHRYS: What about some sort of shadow executive without real powers being set up, a sort of confidence-building measure if you like, to include again, to include Sinn Fein? MACKAY: Well, a shadow executive couldn't last very long without decommissioning starting. HUMPHRYS: But could it be set up, that's my question. MACKAY: I mean possibly, yes, but it would be pretty meaningless if fairly quickly decommissioning didn't take place. I think we must remember that there was a commitment to decommission all illegally held arms and explosives by May of next year, and we have now eighteen months and not one gun or one ounce of Semtex has been handed in by any of the paramilitaries, Republican or so-called Loyalist who signed up to the Belfast agreement, and that is the stumbling block that we've got to get round. HUMPHRYS: So the question is whether more incitements if you like to use that word, more incentives should be offered to the IRA, perhaps you for instance should stop talking about calling a halt to the release of IRA prisoners? MACKAY: I think most reasonable people would say that the paramilitaries, both the Republicans and the Loyalists, it's been all take, and absolutely no give. They've taken what they wanted, the early release of terrorist prisoners, they haven't stopped their violence and they haven't started decommissioning, and I will continue to speak out and say that I believe the Government, the new Secretary of State Peter Mandelson and Tony Blair should halt the early release of terrorist prisoners, because we think it's wrong that two hundred and ninety eight terrorists have been let back out to the streets early, yet there's no guns, no explosives handed in whatsoever. The Belfast Agreement which we strongly support has to be implemented in full. It was a deal, it was a compromise and what has happened is that the forces of democracy, the two governments, the constitutional parties have fulfilled their obligations, but the paramilitaries, the Loyalists and the Republicans have not, and they've got to do so, otherwise the agreement is not going to work. HUMPHRYS: And will you continue to speak out to oppose the reforms of the RUC, those reforms recommended by the Patten Commission? MACKAY: No, let's be quite clear where I have always stood, because there has been misreporting in one or two national newspapers. We see the Patten Report as a very useful blue-print into what policing could be like, probably should be like when there is lasting peace in Northern Ireland. There are a hundred and seventy-five recommendations. A substantial majority of those should be implemented straight away, and they were very much a part of the Chief Constable's own review. A few, like the change of the name and the badge insignia are clearly very controversial, and I think under his own review the Secretary of State will need to think long and hard before changing those. I don't think I would. And the remaining ones which are security sensitive Chris Patten himself has said to us cannot be implemented until there's an end to violence, and there is decommissioning of weapons, in other words an end to terrorism. And as you just saw the Chief Constable, Sir Ronnie Flanagan, saying it would quite wrong to implement the security sensitive recommendations before then because you'd be putting lives at risk, not just in Northern Ireland, but in the Republic of Ireland and also here on the mainland. HUMPHRYS: But those reforms to which you are most opposed are those that are most important to the IRA, so you will make it increasingly difficult for Sinn Fein then? MACKAY: I hope that the Secretary of State will not implement reforms which effect the security of the state. I don't think any reasonable person thinks it's common sense to reduce the number of police officers, get rid of the territorial reserve or actually merge the criminal branch with special branch whilst there's still a terrorist threat. That would be inexcusable. Chris Patten doesn't think that, the Chief Constable doesn't think that. No reasonable observer thinks that, and the new Secretary of State under cross-examination from me in the House of Commons on Wednesday came very close to saying he didn't think so. HUMPHRYS: But I mean things like the cap badge, they don't effect the security of the state. MACKAY: Now, you did notice I did differentiate, I said there were three categories, the ones we can go ahead with straight away, ........ HUMPHRYS: ...so you'd be happy to go ahead with that, for instance. MACKAY: ...and the third category, that are very controversial. and I personally wouldn't change the name or the cap...let me just take away cap badge and insignia for a minute - what is it, it is... HUMPHRYS: ..it's a symbol.. MACKAY: ..it is a crown but it is also the harp and the shamrock, What could be more unifying in Ireland for a police force to have as a cap badge and I think it would be very dangerous, very unwise to change those and I've noticed that Mr Mandelson during this period of public consultation is keeping his options open on that. I don't think he should rush into that. HUMPHRYS: What about the setting up of cross border institutions? MACKAY: I'm in favour of cross border institutions. I'm in favour of good co-operation, even better than we already have between Belfast and Dublin and if that involves elected representatives on both sides, so much the better and I hope that those will continue, they would have my very full backing. HUMPHRYS: So are you saying, because you seem to be saying, yes we will give Sinn Fein IRA some little carrots, some very small carrots but mostly, mostly it's the stick and there is a very clear danger in that isn't there and the danger is ultimately destroying the Good Friday Agreement, or bringing about the end of the Good Friday Agreement. That's the risk isn't it, it's a very big risk. MACKAY: I think that's appeasement, and I would disagree with the premise. They've had a huge great carrot by way of two- hundred and ninety terrorists coming out of prison very early indeed. They've been given a huge amount by this government, more than I believe they should have been given and there's been precious little in return. There hasn't even been a permanent end to violence, the brutality, the tortures, the damage that is being done to people on the streets.. HUMPHRYS: ..on both sides... MACKAY: ..in the two communities is still continuing, on both sides and you will always hear me criticise the so-called Loyalists just as much as the Republicans, both for not decommissioning their weapons and also for continuing violence, they are both quite as bad as each other. HUMPHRYS: The danger is, as I say, that the Good Friday Agreement ultimately may collapse. Appeasement is an ugly word but in this case perhaps people have to bite their lips and say, alright we are going to go for it, call it what you mean because the Good Friday Agreement is the only game in town isn't it, without that there's nothing. MACKAY: I think that if you allow men of violence to become ministers, without them renouncing violence for good, without decommissioning any of their weapons, in a democracy you are going down a very dangerous road indeed. And I think the great majority of people in Northern Ireland, and I think in the South as well, you only had to see the Irish Times editorial last Friday when it put the blame fairly and squarely on the Republicans for giving nothing. For not decommissioning, for not ending violence. So it's isn't just me the Conservative spokesman speaking, it's a lot of very hard nosed experienced commentators North and South of the border and it is essential the pressure is put on them. HUMPHRYS: Andrew Mackay, thank you very much indeed. MACKAY: Thank you.