JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first the continuing row over British beef. On Tuesday the European Commission will vote to take the French Government to court if, by then, they have not lifted their ban. There seems precious little chance that they will do so and the government here is facing humiliation over the whole sorry affair. The Agriculture Minister Nick Brown is in our Newcastle studio. Good afternoon Mr Brown. NICK BROWN MP: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: It has been a real disaster this hasn't it? BROWN: I don't accept that. Clearly we were all shocked and dismayed when the French Government suspended their parliamentary procedure to lift the ban on British beef exports through the date based exports scheme. But we've done the right thing, we've tried to get the matter resolved by discussion. However, if there isn't a clear way forward by tomorrow then the commission will have no choice but to commence infraction proceedings against France. HUMPHRYS: You say you've done the right thing but the effect of that has been to make us look very weak and rather foolish. You've always said it's about to be lifted any day now, the scientific committee three weeks' ago left no options open whatsoever and you said within days it will be lifted. You've either been weak or na�ve or incompetent or a combination of all three. That's the reality isn't it. BROWN: Needless to say I don't accept any of that. It's a strong.. HUMPHRYS: ..which bit of it is not true. BROWN: ..well hang on. It's a strong thing to do to try to resolve a problem by discussion whilst keeping all the options of proceeding through law open and that's exactly what we've done. The alternative is to do what the Conservatives are urging which is to break the law ourselves, which I think would be..would fundamentally put us in the wrong and to embark on some foolish trade war putting hundreds of thousands of British jobs at risk. I think that that is an immature approach and would get us right back to the bad old days of John Major's government and his foolish beef war on Europe. HUMPHRYS: But let's look at the signals that you were sending. I mean the scientific committee as we've said before on this programme, were in absolutely no doubt, they came out in our favour one hundred per cent but still you were prepared to enter negotiations with the French - why? BROWN: Well I've always made it clear that we couldn't renegotiate the date based export scheme itself and Commissioner Byrne, on behalf of the commission, has made the same thing clear. What I have been trying to do is to discuss with the French a way forward, clarifying the way in which the scheme works and trying to get agreement and there are two reasons for that. The first is that it would bring about a far more speedy resolution over the quarrel between us and secondly that if the ban is lifted by consent, the French government will be acknowledging that our beef is safe and so we will be able to sell some in France. HUMPHRYS: Again you see, you've used the word clarify in that answer. There seems not to have been any sort of meeting of minds, indeed the complete dialogue of the death here, because your counterpart in France Mr Glavany said the English are pretending and I quote him: the English are pretending that they think we want explanations and clarifications. What we want are additional guarantees. So either the French have given you the wrong impression deliberately or they've lied to you, or you have given us the wrong impression. BROWN: No, I don't think that is fair. Clearly.. HUMPHRYS: Well again, which bit isn't fair. BROWN: Hang on, let me finish the point. I mean clearly the route that is open to the French Government is to take the fruits of our discussions back to their Foods Standards Agency and to see whether or not that is enough for them to reconsider their decision. That is one way forward. The alternative is that they try to reopen the date based exports scheme and I can tell you right from the beginning both Commissioner Byrne and myself have both made very clear to the French Government that neither of us could countenance a renegotiation of the scheme. HUMPHRYS: Well let's look at the other things that they want then. The two key things apparently at the moment, they want a six month delay while there is and I quote again: systematic testing of all beef. They want a guarantee that exported beef has come from herds that have never been infected by BSE. Now, are you negotiating with them on either of those. BROWN: We are certainly discussing testing with the French and frankly we have a very strong vested interest in developing tests that work as well as the French and indeed other governments in the European Union. And there is nothing wrong with continuing this work and indeed sharing work on this. But it cannot apply exclusively to the date based exports scheme. On the second point, the date based exports scheme is an abattoir based scheme and neither I nor the commission have any intention of turning it into a herd based scheme. HUMPHRYS: So, would you prepared to see a six month delay while that testing that the French are now so keen on goes on? BROWN: The question of testing and the question of a delay in lifting the ban cannot be linked. HUMPHRYS: So there's nothing to negotiate there then. BROWN: There's quite a lot to discuss and explore around testing in which we remember have a very strong interest but tests have not yet been developed that would work effectively on meat as young as the meat we are exporting through the date based exports scheme. HUMPHRYS: And you cannot clearly give them a guarantee that exported beef as the French wish to have, that exported beef has come from herds that have never been infected by BSE. That is simply not doable. BROWN: That would never have been possible under the Florence Agreement because the Florence Agreement is for an abattoir based exports scheme, the date based exports scheme, it is not a herd based scheme. But this was understood from the very beginning. Remember these negotiations started under the last Conservative government. This is a fundamental point of principle which has been understood all along. HUMPHRYS: Yeah.... But you see this is my point really. The French don't appear to understand that, as far as they're concerned that is their bottom line. They want both of those things that we have just been talking about. You have said those two things aren't even up for grabs so how can you be talking about clarifying something when clearly you are not within a million miles of each other. They want something that you this morning tell me they cannot have and never could have had so what was all the talking about? BROWN: Well remember these discussions started off around five points and even you have now got them down to two one of which I think probably isn't in the setting that you represent. I don't think there is a time scale on work on testing in the way that you describe it. HUMPHRYS: Well that's what Glavany said and I'm just quoting Glavany...... BROWN: But you are right in saying that if there is a fundamental quarrel over whether the date based export scheme should be abattoir based or herd based then it would not be possible to find a way through by discussion because as you say that would be an insuperable obstacle. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but you see my point is that even if we are now down to two and there are five originally - those two have always been in it so it was never a question just of clarifying, the French clearly believed unless, as I say they were simply lying, the French clearly believed that they were negotiating something pretty fundamental with you. BROWN: No, I don't accept that the French are lying as you put it, I think they entered into these discussions in good faith to try to find a way through. Nor do I think they entered into these discussions with a view that was a fundamental objection to bringing them to a successful conclusion. HUMPHRYS: Well why then didn't you say to them right at the beginning and indeed say to us 'look, the French want something that we cannot... not only can we not give it to them, we're not even prepared to negotiate on the basis of those things.....' BROWN: Look... John.... John.... Throughout this I have said repeatedly that the terms and the method of operation of the date based export scheme were not up for negotiation, that is the Commission's view as well and it would be extraordinarily odd if it were otherwise because the date based export scheme is underpinned by the science that has been confirmed by the European Union's Scientific Committee very recently. HUMPHRYS: So that is the end then is it? This.... We are now at the end of this 'friendly' approach to the French with Mr Blair calling Mr Jospin whatever it was the other day and having chats at rugby matches and all the rest of it and suggesting that it's all pretty well hunky dory between the two of us - that's all over now? It's bare fist fighting now is it? BROWN: No, the French government and our government have enormous interests in co-operating on a wide range of things and clearly we want to protect our position right across the relationships between the two countries and work to resolve this dispute. There's an enormous amount of work has been put in by officials and by the Prime Minister and by myself. If we can resolve it by discussion we will but if we can't we have made clear from the very beginning that we will resolve it through the courts and we look to the Commission to stand our corner and the Commission will have to consider infraction proceedings this Tuesday if in the mean time we haven't found a clear way forward that leads to the voluntary lifting of the ban by the French. HUMPHRYS: Right. So the legal process begins because clearly tomorrow you're not expecting them to ring you up and say 'Oh look, we're going to drop those two demands after all, now we've thought about it.' BROWN: That isn't quite right. There's quite a lot of work been put in over the weekend and I clearly hope to have a discussion about these things with Jean Glavany when we meet at the Agriculture Council of Ministers on Monday, however, if there isn't a clear way forward to the French lifting their ban by agreement then the Commission on Tuesday will have to consider infraction proceedings. HUMPHRYS: So are you suggesting that perhaps, after all this, tomorrow in spite of everything they've been saying they might say 'okay, we'll do what you want'? BROWN: I'm determined to keep talking and to make sure that everything has been explored however, I said from the very beginning that we were only allowing a matter of days for this process. There's an enormous amount in it for us if it comes to something but if it doesn't the Commission will have to commence infraction proceedings, that decision will have to be made this Tuesday and clearly we have our own rights in law as well which are under detailed consideration now. HUMPHRYS: Right, so realistically that's what's going to happen. Now it could take us we all know a very very long time indeed. Apparently there has to be this great long exchange of letters between the parties, between the Commission and the French government to sort out what their positions are. Well we know fine what their position is and we've known it for a very long time. Are you on behalf of the British government going to say 'lets' speed this thing up so we don't have this ridiculous long exchange of letters, it's going to take months and get nowhere. BROWN: I shall be handing a formal note to the Commission on Monday morning which will call for the Commission to consider infraction proceedings on Tuesday and specifically to ask for the proceedings to be expedited, in other words for a shorter route to be taken to get an early resolution of this. I think the facts are pretty clear cut. HUMPHRYS: And will you ask for what I think they call an interim judgement so what while the whole legal process goes through the French are told to lift the ban because that apparently can be done can't it? BROWN: That will be for the Commission to consider but clearly I will be making representations to them about that but there are some points of law involved. HUMPHRYS: So you would like that to happen? You would like this interim judgement to be made? BROWN: This is something we would want to explore with the Commission...... HUMPHRYS: What just explore....? BROWN: My objective is to get a speedy resolution of this through discussion if we can and through the law if we can't. HUMPHRYS: But why just 'explore'? If we know, as we do know, that it will take many many months, the average time is seventeen months for one of these cases to be sorted out, if we know that's the case why aren't you saying this morning, 'Yeah, damn right I'm going to tell them to do that or ask them to do that'? Why explore? What is there to explore? BROWN: It's because I am professionally advised on the conduct of the case as indeed the Commission will be, and I don't want to put the advice I received in public domain. I think it's better that that is discussed between professionals. The two points I want to make are that we will be expecting the Commission to take infraction proceedings on Tuesday if we haven't made any progress with the French before then, and we want a speedy resolution of this through the courts if we can't get it through dialogue. HUMPHRYS: Exactly, so why don't we take the gloves off for once? BROWN: Well, I couldn't have been clearer. HUMPHRYS: Well, you could have been. You could have said I want to explore it.. Instead of saying I want... BROWN: No, no, John, all I'm saying to you gently is that I don't want to put the details of the handling of a legal action which we are expecting the Commission to undertake in to the public domain before the Commission have made their decision and been professionally advised. HUMPHRYS: Four months ago you said the lifting of the ban showed the success - or Mr Blair said the lifting of the ban showed the success of the Government's leadership in Europe, our constructive approach had been vindicated as it were. It's actually shown precisely the opposite hasn't it? BROWN: No, I don't accept that at all. Remember the decision of the French took everybody by surprise. It wasn't expected. When the political decision was taken last November remember, the French government abstained, they didn't vote against, so we had no indication this was coming. The fact of the matters are that thirteen member states in the European Union have lifted the ban, a fourteenth is trying, and the Commission are standing firmly in our corner. Now compare that with the pathetic position we were in under the last Conservative government when it was Britain that was isolated within Europe. This time it's France. HUMPHRYS: Well you say a fourteenth state. You refer to Germany of course, at least I assume you do., where every single German lender has said: no, we're not going to do it yet, we don't like it. And we heard Claudia Martine a very senior politician saying, we're prepared to pay any commission fine to make sure the Federal Republic is safe. It doesn't sound as if Germany is rushing around to help us does it. It's about time we swung the handbag there as well isn't it? BROWN: The position is this. The German Federal Government is trying to lift the ban, the French Government have said that they will suspend the procedure in lifting the ban. Of course what has happened with the French has been unsettling for the regional governments in Germany. They have this co-decision- making process, but I am certain that the German Federal Government are acting in good faith. HUMPHRYS: You've come under enormous stick over this whole thing, rightly or wrongly, and people say your position has been irreparably damaged. Have you considered at any stage, are you considering now, the possibility, the thought of resigning? BROWN: But it isn't United Kingdom or me that are in the wrong over this... HUMPHRYS; But I'm asking if you haven't considered resignation. . BROWN: The answer of course is no. I'm the person who is trying to sort this out, and I'm doing it in a measured and rational way. I don't think people elected to public office should take these issues personally. Of course it is a problem, a setback and a disappointment that the French have done what they've done. I'm trying to resolve it by discussion and dialogue if I can, and if not by enforcing our country's rights through the mechanisms of the European Union which are there for us and which are working for us, and we will see that happen I suspect on Tuesday if no progress is made. HUMPHRYS: Nick Brown, thanks very much indeed.