JOHN HUMPHRYS: Glenda Jackson, everybody seems to be saying it. You entered the race as the candidate who was going to be loyal - is loyal to Tony Blair. Now you've got Frank Dobson there, better chance than you. Why not step aside and let him do it? GLENDA JACKSON: Well, that was not my motivation when I tossed my hat into the ring. I'd been encouraged by people both from within and without the party. It is to me inconceivable that for a party like ours there should not be a woman's name on that ballot paper given the efforts that we have made to encourage women to put themselves forward for consideration for political office at absolutely every single level, and what I found very interesting post one of the previous candidates pulling out, I was going from one side of London to the other that day and people were saying to me "you're not pulling out are you?" and I was saying, "No, I'm absolutely not pulling out". So I've still got a great deal of encouragement and I will continue to make my case to the people who really matter, and those of course are the members of the Greater London Labour Party. HUMPHRYS: You make it sound a wee bit like a sort of token appearance because after all Frank - I mean token woman - Frank Dobson's the man with the experience, he's been a council leader in London, he's been a Cabinet minister. Isn't that what this job needs? It's a big job. JACKSON: Well I have to say as a woman I've been called far worse than a token in the past and I've no doubt I'll be called far worse in the future, and it really doesn't worry me because I know in effect that I am not, nor is any woman who actually manages to make it to whichever position she is actually wanting to achieve..... HUMPHRYS: Token candidate I meant of course. JACKSON: No, I don't see that at all... HUMPHRYS: Because you raised the question of being the woman, and my point is that..... JACKSON: I think it's a valid point to raise given that women are fifty-one per cent of the population in London, and as I've said, my party is the party who have consistently supported the idea of women who are half the world's population genuinely representing those people in every level of political power and office. But it's not just a gender issue for me. I do represent a London seat. Every single important event of my life other than being born has happened to me in London, I've lived in London from the perspective of being very poor to being quite well-off. I've lived in lots of it, I've certainly campaigned across all of it, and I am and in fairness to my colleagues, this is the same for them too, I am very aware of the problems that London is facing, and I believe I know how to tackle them. HUMPHRYS: But you haven't had the sort of heavyweight experience that Frank Dobson has had. JACKSON: Well, you say heavyweight experience.... HUMPHRYS: Well, a leader of the council, cabinet minister... JACKSON: Well, yes, but the if we're looking at the kind of reporting there has been over the past few weeks, and hopefully we're out of that now and into the official Labour selection process, that has not actually borne any particular fruit. Someone said to me, what we're seeing is a situation at the moment where one candidate is being presented as being too close to government, another being too distant from government, where are you? And I said the issue here is that this is a brand new model for city-wide government that the Labour Party has created. The Mayor will have the largest popular political mandate of any figure in Europe I believe by virtue of the size of the electorate, and that is a major, major voice, and it would be a foolish government of any political persuasion that didn't listen to what that represented and what the people of London had to say. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but you don't have the sort of contacts that you would need in that job. I quote Jim Dickson in that film we just saw, the Lambeth leader: She doesn't have the clout or the contacts and other people are very dismissive of you. Roy Hattersley: a tremendous actress who chose to be a nondescript politician. JACKSON: Well, I mean - people are of course entitled to their own opinions. I always tend to reject opinions because people never actually have the courage to come up and say that to my face, but that doesn't seem to me to be what is central here. What is central is that the arguments we will all be making should we appear on the short list of the Labour Party is to the people who really matter here in the first instance and that is the membership of the Greater London Labour Party. Now, I know we're in an electoral college situation, but I think where we all have an equal opportunity here is that the unions for example quite rightly in the main have decided to ballot their own members. We have to make our cases and that is certainly what I'm committed to doing and have been doing, and despite what you've been seeing on television, where I go, wherever I go there's a great deal of support and people consistently saying to me: you are staying in aren't you. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but as you say people don't always say things to your face that they may be saying behind your back, and one of the points that a lot of people make is that you do not actually disagree with any of the Government's main policies whether they affect London or not. JACKSON: Well I campaigned on the same manifesto as every other member of parliament who was returned for the Labour Party, and it seemed to be... HUMPHRYS: But you've carried on supporting whatever they've done, that's the point so,..... JACKSON: Well, I was a minister and we do have a principle of collective responsibility for the Government. HUMPHRYS: So are there some things that now with hindsight you don't approve of? JACKSON: No, I don't think so. I think in the main what we... HUMPHRYS: That's my point. JACKSON: Well, as I say, I campaigned on a manifesto. I'm not going to change my mind only two years after the event and I'm not going to betray the arguments that I carried out on the doorstep for delivering the Labour Government's policies, but I think the idea that the only purpose in creating a Mayor for London is to ensure that there's this kind of umbilical chord, and I repeat this is a new way of dealing with city-wide government - the Mayor is a very powerful figure by virtue of the fact it is the people of London who will decide. HUMPHRYS: So if any voter out there wanted the candidate - wanted a Mayor who was independent of government, who might say for instance: I don't like their transport policy, look at the tube, it is a mess, look at the proposals they have for it, they're not going to work - you'd have to say, "Well I'm sorry, you've got me and I'm going to support them all the way down the line". JACKSON: Well, I would say that earlier than that, because in fact I do believe that the public private partnership is the way to ensure adequate funds are brought into the tube over a sufficiently long period of time. It isn't a privatisation, it is deemed a partial privatisation, and it does seem to me given the commitment that John Prescott the Deputy Prime Minister has given, that there will be no signing off of any kind of contracts with the PPP until he is absolutely convinced that it is going to deliver the best results for us as taxpayers and most certainly the highest quality of service for us as passengers. The idea that any exchequer in the world would be able to find the adequate amounts of money over such a long period of time is absurd... HUMPHRYS: Bond issue - for the people of London, even Frank Dobson seems quite keen on that. JACKSON: Well, it's... I haven't actually heard Frank say that is his chosen option. I know that is the option for Ken and certainly for Trevor Phillips when he was still in the race, and he is now Frank's running mate. That was also his chosen option. But if you look at the example of bond issues, for example being raised in New York, they did raise vast amounts of money but on three separate occasions the federal government had to step in to prevent New York becoming bankrupt. One of the issues of the bonds lost I think it was seventy per cent of their value. That is a major, major risk to place on all of London's public transport. HUMPHRYS: But you'd have a guarantee.... JACKSON: That is what would go. HUMPHRYS: But you'd have a guaranteed income from these congestion charges wouldn't you? JACKSON: If the study that the government office for London is undertaking at the moment shows that congestion charging is viable and feasible and I believe it would, then yes certainly there would be an additional stream of revenue for the mayor because that of course is the other great breakthrough that we have made as a government in that all monies raised by congestion charging must be spent on the improvement of public transport and the public transport infrastructures - hypothecation. HUMPHRYS: So come what may, you'd be in there on a Blairite government ticket. You'd submit your manifesto for London to Millbank for their approval would you, you'd say: what do you think guys. JACKSON: I've already published my manifesto. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but I mean each time you want to do something you'd say to Millbank - is that alright? JACKSON: The people you would be arguing with, if one is indeed selected as Labour's candidate, is the people of London. They are the people who will decide in the final ballot which will take place in May of next year and if you look at the examples of the truly successful mayors around the world, they, regardless of their party political basis, they all have one thing in common. They are very very clear to whom they are directly responsible and that is the people who put them there. That is their electorate and their primary overriding interest is what is best for their city and for the people of that city and that is something that I would find very easy to actually pursue with all my energy. HUMPHRYS: So it might be that as time went by, you divine that the people of London weren't terribly keen on the PPP thing for the Underground for instance, you'd say, well okay we'll give you something different, even if the government doesn't like it. JACKSON: Well I can't believe that once the arguments are truly defined and it is made abundantly clear that it is not any kind of privatisation, that the responsibility not only for delivering services but in a sense ensuring that the contracts are delivered, will be the mayor and transport for London. The people of London will realise that that is the way forward. I mean one of the... HUMPHRYS: May not like Railtrack being involved? JACKSON: Well this is an issue which is being examined even as we speak. I mean one of the bitter bitter ironies of that dreadful dreadful tragedy in Paddington was that the report that Prescott had asked for into whether there was a deterioration of safety with regard to Railtrack I believe landed on his desk the day after. But I mean one of your contributors in that film said that we had not been successful in getting additional funding from the Treasury for London Underground. That is simply not true. In the first year of government, we got an additional three hundred and fifty three million and in the second year we got five hundred and sixty-five million, if the Conservatives had been in this year London Transport would have been looking at the princely sum of a hundred and one million pounds. HUMPHRYS: Do you agree therefore, I take it you do on the basis of the policies that you've been adumbrating here this morning. Do you agree that Ken Livingstone would be a disaster for London? JACKSON: No I don't believe that any of us would be a disaster for London. I mean the point is, as I've said, we are all London MPs, we are all very aware of the problems that London is facing. In the main I think we have pretty much the same approach to tackling those problems, we may prioritise them differently and clearly there are differences with regard to the funding for the Underground, where I think I have an advantage if you like, although in a way it's been presented as a disadvantage by those people who are clearly not supporters of mine in your film, is that I don't bring any of the old London governance baggage with me, Ken undoubtedly does and to a lesser degree so does Frank. HUMPHRYS: But given that you decided, that you were not going to make it, one way or the other and you could help one of those two: Ken Livingstone or Frank Dobson to get in, which one would have the Jackson support? JACKSON: Well if I didn't think I could make it, I wouldn't be talking to you. I mean I am, someone said to me when I first announced that I was tossing my hat into the ring: are you part of the stop Ken campaign and I said this is the go with Glen campaign. I believe that I have a great deal to offer to London. I believe that I could make a good job as London's mayor and I am absolutely determined to stay in there. HUMPHRYS: The polls give you no chance. JACKSON: Well you know the only poll that really matters as far as the first stage is concerned is the one that will be registering the decisions of the Greater London Labour Party. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but why not stand aside so that Dobson, Frank Dobson then had a much better chance of winning because clearly you and he will split the Loyalist as it were ticket, won't you. JACKSON: I don't think that is the case at all. HUMPHRYS: Of course it will. I mean if people want to vote against Tony Blair they will vote for Ken Livingstone. JACKSON: I don't believe that we are in the area of it being a kind of loyalist or disloyalist ticket if you like. I think.. HUMPHRYS: Blair does.. JACKSON: Well.. you say. I mean I've not heard that directly from the Prime Minister. I think where we have an advantage in a sense now, that we are into the official selection process is that because of all the fracas there has been over the past few weeks the issue is one which is very central to the membership of the Greater London Labour Party. HUMPHRYS: Glenda Jackson, thank you very much indeed. JACKSON: Thank you.