JOHN HUMPHRYS: Stewart Francis, Deputy Chairman of the Rail Passengers Association, does all of that make sense, would you be behind all of that? STEWART FRANCIS: Well I think that the main problem John is that passengers' aspirations were raised at privatisation and the rail industry has been playing catch up ever since. I mean the fact is the industry is suffering from a lack of capacity, a lack of new trains, an infrastructure that can't support a decent railway at the present time. We have got old stations built in the Victorian era and we've got a fare system that is very very complicated. Those are the complaints that we get as the Passengers Watchdog. HUMPHRYS: And you've just had your first national as I understand it, National Rail Users Conference. So the verdict was? FRANCIS: Well the verdict was that we've still got late and over crowded trains. They still are uncomfortable and we have a bad entry point to the system. I mean what we are concentrating on at the moment is a rail passengers organisation, because what this government has done, is that it has given us the opportunity for the passengers' voice to be heard in this debate, which is almost the first time that that has happened. With the setting up of the shadow Strategy Rail Authority, it's been made clear to us that we have to speak loud and clear on behalf of passengers. Now that isn't just about the things that are wrong now, it's actually about our future vision and what we want to see of the railway in the next ten or twenty years. HUMPHRYS: I'm slightly puzzled about this because if people are so unhappy and the implication of everything you say is that they feel they have been let down, the promises haven't been delivered upon. Why are so many more of them actually using the trains now than were before privatisation? FRANCIS: Well I think you've got to look at economic effects and you've also got to, I mean I would challenge you about the point of if it's so bad now. I believe things have improved since privatisation, but I come back to my initial point. The industry is actually playing catch up at this time, people are experiencing better customer service. There are more trains running and the industry is just about coping with that situation. The fact is that we can predict in two or three years time, unless the investment goes in now, and this has been the poor result of privatisation that the investment is always just around the corner and we need to get the investment in now. HUMPHRYS: So you are saying if that investment does not go in now, not in a year's time or six months time, but now.. FRANCIS: The system will grind to a halt. HUMPHRYS: Will grind to a halt? FRANCIS: Yeah, because there will be too many passengers trying to get on too many trains and they are not going to be able to get through the Welling viaduct into London down the East Coast mainline. HUMPHRYS: So that would be a disaster. FRANCIS: It would be a disaster for passengers yes, because people in this country want more and more mobility. The fact is that Railtrack are coming up with plans now to address these problems. What we are looking for is this process to be speeded up. HUMPHRYS: Alright.