JOHN HUMPHRYS: Let me turn to George Muir, Director General of ATCO, that's the association of companies that actually run the trains, like Virgin and all the rest of it. Do you accept that analysis, that unless this money goes in now it's all going to grind to a halt? GEORGE MUIR: Well, it won't exactly grind to a halt, but I do accept the analysis that decisions have to be made very quickly to go ahead with the very major investments that are required to build capacity, and the investments are set out in some detail in last year's network management statement by Railtrack. And now what is now happening is that train operators are now putting forward and are working out detailed plans in conjunction with Railtrack and are putting these plans to the strategic rail authority. HUMPHRYS: You're discussing all of the new franchises and what should happen? MUIR: Yes, but the key thing is that it's not so much new franchises. The key thing is that they go with investment programmes, and it is the joint investment programme in each particular location worked out between the train operator and Railtrack which is as a package being presented to the Strategic Rail Authority, because we've got to divide up this vast network into individual problem issues. You know you don't solve the whole thing, you solve it bit by bit, and each bit is being looked at by the train operators there who are working out very heavy investment programmes for each location, and these decisions must be made quickly, smartly, predictably, and that is I think what is happening. HUMPHRYS: Part of the solution as I understand it is that the train operating companies are saying, we need longer franchises, whatever their investment is. People listening to this programme will say: Well hang on a minute, they're the people who haven't actually delivered the goods, we have all sorts of problems, Virgin and heaven knows who else, and yet you want us to give you longer. MUIR: No, be quite clear. The train operators have and OPRAV, the Strategic Rail Authority will confirm this, have delivered on substantially every commitment they made. What has changed ...... HUMPHRYS: That will puzzle a lot of people won't it - people who stand on wet and windy platforms at seven o'clock on Monday morning waiting for a train..... MUIR: .. to the extent - but the key thing is that we must put stronger commitments into the new franchises, and the train operators are perfectly willing to enter into the stronger commitments. What is happening now, and it's very important to understand this, is that people in their everyday lives have got used to levels of service through normal consumer products and normal consumer goods, whether they're new cars or foreign holidays of extraordinary high standards. HUMPHRYS: Much higher than they get on the railways? MUIR: Indeed it is, and we - and if a new car's delivered and it's scratched it gets sent back, and they're now starting to apply the same standards to railways, and they're right to do so, and I want them to do so, and I want the facilities, I want the facilities to deliver a service that meets these high ........ HUMPHRYS: How are you going to do it? MUIR: We're going to do it in exactly the way that the Government's set out we're going to do it, which is that we're going to put investment programmes, each train operator's going to put investment programmes together, working with Railtrack, are going to enter into agreements within the next twelve months, substantially two-thirds I expect of all train operators, of all franchises will have new investment programmes signed up and committed to. And these will have in the franchise agreements, will have a very high standard, will have escalating standards which are obligatory for us to deliver on. That is the way to deliver it, and that is what is happening. HUMPHRYS: So leave it to the train operating companies. MUIR: No. It's a joint - it's a joint - no, it is a three-way - it's a Strategic Rail Authority which was set up by this Government contracting with train operators who contract with Railtrack. HUMPHRYS: Right. Well on that business..... MUIR: Altogether we'll deliver it. HUMPHRYS: On that business of contracting with Railtrack, you'll going to have more money because you are carrying more passengers. MUIR: Yes. HUMPHRYS: What about sharing some of that money, handing some of that extra fare money that you are going to get to Railtrack? MUIR: We will be paying Railtrack more through their track access when they - in exchange for the higher investment in capacity. Every new path Railtrack provides us we pay extra for. Every enhancement we pay extra for, and we're willing to do so. HUMPHRYS: So that for every extra passenger you get - a train operator gets - I think Virgin has done a deal of this sort - every extra passenger you get, they, Railtrack will get a little bit more? MUIR: I don't want to pre-judge the form in which that extra money from Railtrack will be go. HUMPHRYS: That would be a fairer way of doing it wouldn't it? MUIR: Yes, but it doesn't address the particular things we want from Railtrack. What we want from Railtrack is completed capital investment, and I want to tie the main increased payments we make to the completed capital investment. We want paths from Railtrack. I want to tie the payments we make to the extra paths we get from Railtrack. HUMPRHYS: Extra paths? MUIR: Train paths. HUMPHYRS: Okay. MUIR: I want to try, we want more reliability on the network and Railtrack I know wants to give it to us, and I want to tie our payments to these outputs, so I'm more interested in tying our payments to the particular outputs which Railtrack will deliver. HUMPHRYS: In other words delivery on results. That's what you're saying, because at the moment the results from Railtrack are not good enough. MUIR: Well, I do want delivery on results. You've come and said that the results from Railtrack are not good enough. I don't accept that. Railtrack has got a massive task to do, and they've made it. HUMPHRYS: But, but, yes - sorry - if Railtrack is doing what it's meant to be doing and everything is hunky-dory from their point of view, how come whenever one talks to somebody from one of the train operating companies, and whenever passengers complain, they say: well, we're sorry, but it's the state of the track, it's the state of the lines, it's the state of the signalling, it's the state of this, that, or the other. If everything is fine with you and everything's fine with Railtrack, where's the problem. Why are people suffering? MUIR: The problem is that we have not put in the work and the investment to deliver the level of service that passengers want. HUMPHRYS: So everything is not fine in truth? MUIR: No, no, you're confusing the vocabulary, you're tripping me up with words. I said Railtrack has a massive job to do. The last three years has been the beginning and as a beginning I think they've done a very good job as a beginning. I'm more interested in what they do in the next three years, and that is what is going to be set out in the network management statements, and it's the next three years that I'm interested in.