JOHN HUMPHRYS: And now whither the Liberal Democrats? Or perhaps more importantly... whither the relationship between them and the Labour Party. Paddy Ashdown was so close to Tony Blair that he told the tale in his diary of how Mr Blair had offered him two seats in the cabinet as part of a coalition. It would have been a dramatic change in the political landscape... a coalition of the centre-left designed to keep the Tories out of power for ever. It didn't happen, apparently because Mr Blair went cool on the whole thing. But co-operation continues and tomorrow Mr Ashdown's successor, Charles Kennedy, is going to Downing Street for his first formal meeting with the Prime Minister since he took over the leadership. Mr Kennedy I'm tempted to say 'why are you bothering because it really is the end of the road for that sort of co-operation isn't it? CHARLES KENNEDY: Well we'll suck it and see tomorrow if you like but there's quite a big legislative agenda in this Queen's Speech that we need to be in discussion with the government about; Freedom of Information being one, what's the next step, if any, in the reform of the House of Lords? We have ideas about that. European institutions particularly after the events of the past few days in Helsinki, the need for further reform there is fairly self evident. Now if we can maintain a constitutional worthwhile dialogue with the government I think that we owe it to our supporters and our voters to try and influence the government in a more positive way. We've got criticisms on all three of these broad issues so let's sit down and talk. If we can make progress, let's make progress. HUMPHRYS: I'll pick up on each of those in a moment if I may but look who you're taking with you tomorrow - Simon Hughes who is not exactly known as a great supporter of this sort of co-operation. It rather suggests that you yourself, choosing to take Simon Hughes with you, you yourself are a bit ambivalent about it all. KENNEDY: No, don't read too much into the cast of personnel. If you remember what Paddy did when he approached the joint cabinet committee was he had a fixed five individuals by and large who wen t to each one to deal with different issues. Now I'm taking a slightly different approach I'm fielding people if you like on our side depending on what the agenda is. Now Simon is now our new Home Affairs spokesman, we're discussing the new Freedom of Information legislation which is a home affairs bill therefore Simon is at the table putting the case for us so he should be. HUMPHRYS: Putting the boot in....... KENNEDY: Well I suspect putting robust critique of the government on the table which is what's needed. Bill Rogers our leader in the Lords is going to be there tomorrow, why, because we're discussing the future of the House of Lords. Margaret Jay I gather is going to be there as the government Leader in the Lords so it makes sense for Bill to be there. Next time round, if there is a next time round it might be a different cast of characters depending on the agenda. HUMPHRYS: Alright well let's look at this particular agenda: freedom of information. Now this is one of those areas that you've been talking about for two and a half years ever since they've been in power pretty much. What has actually happened during that time is that the government has moved further and further away from your position. You want to let it all hang out or at least much more than is hanging out at the moment as it were and they've gone in exactly the other direction from you. KENNEDY: Well I wouldn't quite buy into your terminology (both speaking at once) They are..... amongst consenting adults behind closed doors I'm sure it might get worse than that who knows. The position is that the government have certainly, first and foremost at least we've got freedom of information legislation introduced, the Conservatives were daft enough to vote against it this week saying that what they used to do in government was better than what this will be, now that's just for the birds. HUMPHRYS: Well I'm not sure that it is. One of your men, Mr Maclennan, he says that Labour has betrayed its commitment to openness so in a sense it isn't better that what went before. KENNEDY: Well Bob will be at the meeting tomorrow as well because he has been much involved and if you look at the excellent speech he made in the Commons this week on our behalf about the issue he highlighted quite clearly the significant areas where we want the government to move further. For example - what constitutes, if I'm the civil servant and you're the minister, what constitutes the factual information that I give to you as opposed to the personal bias if you like, the personal pitch I want to make about the policy issues? That's got to be clarified. Jack Straw..... HUMPHRYS: Clarified? It's got to be reversed. I mean they're going in the opposite direction from the way you wanted them to go. KENNEDY: Well look at what Jack Straw said, he said when he introduced the second reading that he was still open to persuasion on many of these kinds of issues. Well - we're there to try and persuade him. HUMPHRYS: But he believes that what he's doing is a huge contribution to freedom of information. You, and I've yet to find anybody outside the Home Office and the government who agrees with him on that, especially you. KENNEDY: Well indeed. We welcome the fact and it would be churlish not to do so that at last we've got a legislative opportunity in both houses of parliament, never forget that, the Lords has a significant role to play on this as on other issues, your report on jury trials being a good case in point, and that secondly, although we feel the government have moved away from some of the positions that they were moving towards earlier in the year none the less at least movement is the order of the day and we've got to try and push that movement back in a better direction and that's what we're there to do. HUMPHRYS: Maybe. Well let's look at Lords reform then. You want a fully elected second chamber because your party believes in democracy. There is no way at all that you are going to get that. KENNEDY: Well let's see, we haven't had the discussion yet. HUMPHRYS: Do you even think that's remotely possible? KENNEDY: Well what's the alternative from the government's point of view? HUMPHRYS: Tony Blair has made it clear that he has not the slightest intention of going down that road. KENNEDY: I don't think for example that this interim house will end up satisfying anybody very much and I'll tell you who it won't satisfy most of all in time to come in the course of this session - the government. Why? Because the Liberal Democrats now hold the balance of power in the reformed House of Lords and in fact the government even if there are more interim life peers appointed, we don't know the numbers yet there's speculation in the press about this, what will happen is that the government won't be able to win votes unless it's able to secure support beyond their own ranks. So in other words they're on a hiding to nothing in this interim house in terms of their own legislative programme and that I think will be an impetus for them to move forward to the next stage of reform. HUMPHRYS: And you yourselves in the Liberal Democrats, you could not vote ultimately for anything less than a wholly elected second chamber? KENNEDY: That's our principle position, that's the one we made clear from day one. HUMPHRYS: And there is no indication to you from Tony Blair that he is even remotely interested in that? KENNEDY: We've not had that discussion. That discussion will take place...... HUMPHRYS: .... Well he didn't give Paddy Ashdown it did he? KENNEDY: Well he didn't give Paddy Ashdown it no but then they were only going through the first phases of reform at that stage. We've not had that discussion yet. I'll probably be in a better position twenty four or thirty-six hour's time to answer that. HUMPHRYS: Well it would be great for you to be able to come out and say he's going to go down that road, there will be people fainting all over Westminster and Whitehall. Anyway, let's look at the big one from your point of view - PR, proportional representation. It is not even on the agenda, proportional representation for Westminster, it's not even on the agenda, it is not likely to be and some would say there is no way it's going to be in the next manifesto so what are you going to do about that? KENNEDY: Well let's work from the end of the question backwards. First of all if Labour are not able to reconfirm, as it were, a commitment to a referendum on proportional representation for Westminster I certainly don't see any future prospect for further constitutional co-operation between the two parties. HUMPHRYS: Ah so that's it, that's the breaking point. KENNEDY: I think that would be self-evident. Even if I didn't take that view and personally I do, as well as politically, I don't think I would be allowed to take another view by the membership of the Liberal Democrats. They would say the curtain comes down at that point, so I don't think there's room for manoeuvre there. It's appeared in one manifesto, there therefore would be no excuse for excluding it or excising it from our future manifesto. The second point about PR however, is I think we have got to be incremental about this and realistic. The thing about referendums, you could say the same about the EURO, you could have a PR for Westminster. The thing about a referendum, you can lose it and I would rather as a Democrat as well as somebody having a healthy eye on the bottom line politically, go a bit longer and win a referendum than have referendums tomorrow and end up losing them because there's a big persuasion case to be made for changing the voting system for Westminster, as there is for getting Britain to embrace the notion of the EURO. HUMPHRYS: I haven't noticed Tony Blair and his colleagues but trying to prepare the ground for that, trying to persuade us to accept PR when it comes, if it comes. KENNEDY: No indeed not, although I notice with interest Robin Cook was on another channel that better remain nameless earlier today, reaffirming his long held commitments so we have friends at court if you like, around that cabinet table who are firm adherents to PR: Peter Mandelson, Mo Mowlam. So it's not an isolated position but you're quite right, the case has got to be made from on high and again that's up to us to try and encourage the government in that direction. But there is, on an interim basis, there is another issue that we need to look at. The coalition between Labour and the Liberal Democrats has agreed in principle that there will be fair votes for local government in Scotland... HUMPHRYS: PR.. KENNEDY: PR - now it seems to me that once you apply the logic of that in Scotland, you already have it in Northern Ireland, you can't deny the logic any longer for England and Wales. There's a local government Bill going through Parliament at the moment in this session, there will be opportunities there to try and explore the scope for widening PR. After all, you know, the London Mayor is much in the news yet again today, for all the self-evident problems of the Conservatives this weekend, seems to be turning about with them, one weekend after the other, and if you look at that the London Mayor and the Assembly members around that Mayor, that involves a system of proportional representation. So they are even applying the logic in one part of England. So we would be arguing strongly this session that logic should now be applied elsewhere in the country as well. HUMPHRYS: Brief diversion, the way things are going, your candidate is going to be the best known candidate in this race? KENNEDY: Well at the moment, in the words of the old films, slightly adapted, it's Kramer-v-Who?. We've got Susan Kramer, she was selected as our candidate at the same time as I was elected as our leader and I can look you in the eye today, as the only party leader who could sit here saying this, not only have we got a candidate, democratically arrived at by all the members in London, but she has the full unequivocal and enthusiastic support of the party leadership. HUMPHRYS: Alright, but you say that you are moving towards PR, proportional representation for local elections in Scotland, the fact is, it is actually on hold at the moment, isn't it, that's the reality of the situation there. KENNEDY: Well they are looking at an independent commission... HUMPHRYS: Mmm. Exactly, which is a wonderful way of kicking it in, or hitting it into the long grass isn't it? KENNEDY: Well I think if you look at the machinations in Scotland that independent commission is certainly, the very fact that it's there and is taking evidence and is considering alternative systems, is creating a fair old fall-out within the ranks of the Labour Party in Scotland. So we're taking it seriously... HUMPHRYS: Has Tony Blair said it's going to happen then? Told you it's going to happen? Told anybody in your party it's going to happen? KENNEDY: Well no, what happens in Scotland, we must remember this is the whole point about devolution. That's a matter for the elected parliamentarians in Scotland.. HUMPHRYS: I'm sorry, has he given you any indication at all, or any of your people, any indication at all that it's going to happen in England? KENNEDY: No, not as of yet. No, it would be quite misleading to suggest that but it's something that we will again be discussing tomorrow. HUMPHRYS: You are in coalition in Scotland, it appears to be doing you no good at all because on the important issues and I'm thinking obviously of tuition fees where you made a very big promise and absolutely crystal clear promise before the election that it would be abolished if you have any hand in it whatsoever, you're not getting your way. KENNEDY: Well again, we are awaiting the Cubie Report which is the...another independent commission, there's a lot of independent commissions about these days.. HUMPHRYS: Oh well, it's a great way of putting things off... KENNEDY: It focuses minds, it focuses minds when they appear, it will appear I think before Christmas. Now we put in a robust submission to that, we reaffirmed our policy stance was we were against tuition fees, we want free access to tertiary education at the point of access and that's something I don't think that we would be remotely minded as a party to move away from. So it's got to be decided on the back of the commission, when it reports, what will happen next. Now let me make my position quite clear, it's not for me to call the shots here over Jim Wallace, it's a matter between Jim as our Scottish leader and Donald Dewar as the First Minister and their respective parties in the Parliament. But I think there is a genuine sense on both sides that we want the coalition to succeed because if it succeeds it's not just good for the governance of Scotland, it's a good advert for proportional representation and coalition governments, which has a bigger resonance than just within Scotland itself. HUMPHRYS: But it cannot succeed if, unless tuition fees are chucked out, you cannot continue to be a part of a coalition that continues to have tuition fees. KENNEDY: That ultimately has to be a decision that Jim and his colleagues will take but I think.. HUMPHRYS: But your advice to him would be, would it not, on the basis of what you've just been saying... KENNEDY: I absolutely disavow any opportunity to give Jim public advice because that's not my role. It must be for him to decision on devolved matters. That's what devolution is all about. HUMPHRYS: Would you not have a problem with them abandoning one of the first pledges your party has ever made? KENNEDY: I think they would have a problem too and all the evidence that I receive from colleagues in Scotland, including Jim, is that there is not any kind of appetite politically in our part to abandon what is such a major commitment. HUMPHRYS: Well, exactly, because if you did, nobody could trust you again, could they? KENNEDY: Well, I think that those things would be said. But coming back to your opening point about this co-operative arrangement in Scotland, actually you know, the opinion polls don't bear out this, that our support has remained steady, it is not sinking as a result of going into coalition government. HUMPHRYS: Well, you haven't abandoned any pledges quite yet. KENNEDY: Well, give it time, give it time. I think the more the coalition is seen to deliver, on what is it? The best part of four dozen of the Manifesto commitments of the coalition government are Liberal Democrat commitments. Now over a three or four year Parliament, if that is seen to work effectively, I think that will be a very good argument, not least for the next Westminster election. HUMPHRYS: Ah, well, let's look at that because under Paddy Ashdown, it was quite clear what the strategy was. He wanted to extend co-operation with the Labour Party as far as possible. Is that your policy? KENNEDY: No, I don't think at this stage in the Parliament, the second half of the Parliament, which has always got a much more competitive edge to it, because people are looking to the finishing team in the House of Commons, understandably so, on both sides. I don't think that there's an appetite either amongst the majority of Lib Dem MPs, or indeed amongst the majority of our activists and members to see us extending into great further areas, not least when the shopping list that we have rather blithely run through in this interview this morning is itself enormous. There is enough to keep us going there for the whole of the second half of this Parliament alone. You think of Lords, Freedom of Information, European Institutions, I mean that's a big agenda in itself, so I don't really see that there will be a great deal of scope for extending co-operation into domestic policy issues like welfare reform or like the future of the Health Service, I don't see that happening. HUMPHRYS: So therefore, Mr. Ashdown's ultimate objective, which was quite clear again, and that was to form a coalition as early as possible, very early indeed if we are believe what he wrote in his diaries, is not your objective. You are not here today saying, and you are having an important policy meeting this afternoon, you will not be saying this afternoon, brothers and sisters, we are about a coalition. KENNEDY: Well again, terminology, I wouldn't be using the phrase brothers and sisters, I don't think, to Liberal Democrats. There would be a mass walkout. HUMPHRYS: What do you call them then, friends? KENNEDY: Friends, friends, Romans and countrymen but the..I think the basic point is that any new leader of the Lib Dems, whether it was me, or whether it was anybody else, sitting here today, would have to say to you and would have to say to the membership and to the voters who support us and want us to do better, look, there is a great shot on the board here, I mean, the Conservatives are split down the middle over Europe, they can't even agree on a candidate for the Mayor of London, they are in a shambolic state. There is a case, and there is a cause, there is a big opportunity for a constructive coherent united Opposition Party, which can co-operate with the Government where it makes sense, but can actually give the most telling Opposition critique of the Government and an alternative view, where that makes sense as well. That is what we should be doing. HUMPHRYS: So tomorrow's meeting with Tony Blair could be the last one? KENNEDY: Who knows. I don't know. I mean, if we can make progress, and I think both of us are minded to try and make progress where it makes sense to make progress on both sides we will do so. But we will have to wait and see how it goes. HUMPHRYS: So if Tony Blair doesn't give way, and it would mean him giving way on those three important issues that we talked about, you would have to say at the end of it, well, nice to see you Tony, but that's it now until after the next Election when we will see what happens. KENNEDY: I suspect neither him nor myself operate in that kind of way actually, I think we are slightly more consensual individuals, and I don't see that sort of discussion unfolding. But I think what we will have is an honest, friendly, frank appraisal of where we've got to and where we go from here. HUMPHRYS: Politicians use the word frank, we know what they mean. Charles Kennedy.. KENNEDY: This was a frank discussion! HUMPHRYS: (laughter)Thanks Charles, thanks for coming in.