BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 30.01.00

Interview: JOHN REID MP, Scottish Secretary.

On how devolution of power to Scotland is affecting the British Government at Westminster.



JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first let's go to Scotland. Not a bad idea, you're likely to have a better Health Service and a cheaper university education if you do for a start. And that's not only because the Scots have always had more money from the Exchequer than the English, but now that they have their own Parliament they can pass laws that give them other advantages too. The decision taken in Edinburgh last week to do away with up front tuition fees for students has given the government here in London an awkward problem: the Scottish tail wagging the British dog. Well the Scottish Secretary is John Reid, he's in our Glasgow studio. Good afternoon Mr Reid. JOHN REID: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: Now then, the government is going to have to change its policies because of what you're up to in Scotland. Can't carry on like this can you? REID: Well that's not quite true John. The whole point of devolution was not to give us different objectives. The objectives in Scotland are exactly the same as they are throughout the United Kingdom which is to give greater access to people from low income backgrounds. But the mechanics of it in Scotland can be different in order to suit local circumstances, so in Scotland they've brought in a series of measures, in England the fee system is working well. Indeed last year there was more than five thousand additional students went to higher education. During the week David Blunkett gave another eighty million pounds to encourage mature students and those from a low income background to it. So the systems are different but the objective is the same and because they are different doesn't mean to say that one discriminates against the other. I mean anymore than David Blunkett's eighty million additional spending to encourage those from low income and mature students into higher education discriminates against the Scots, it doesn't. That's the whole point of devolution. We can do things differently and better respond to local needs, not only in Scotland but also in the other nations of the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: Well alright. Let's accept for the moment that the system is different and not the policy. Though most people say that clearly the policy is different. Do you think that the government's policy, the Westminster Government's policy to save any confusion, and system, on tuition fees is the right one, is right, do you support it? REID: Yes I do, of course I support it. HUMPHRYS: Well the other one's wrong isn't it. REID: No John, you seem to think that if you have a common objective everyone must have the same policy. I mean this is what amuses me, because people like your good selves spend half your time telling us the government are control freaks who want to control everything from the centre and the other half criticising us when we allow people to do things their own way according to local circumstances. Because things are different doesn't mean - or applied in a different way - doesn't mean to say that's inherently wrong. That's in the nature of the devolution settlement which is intended above all to modernise our constitution. The most radical change for three hundred years and to replace the attitude of a government which for the past twenty years under the Tories was dividing and breaking up Britain precisely because they would not pay attention to the feelings of those from the nations and the regions within the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: Well I tell you what, if I had a University age child and I was living in England or Wales and I had to pay a thousand pounds in tuition fees a year, three thousand pounds for three years and then you came along to me, as a Cabinet Minister, one of my Cabinet ministers 'cause you are in my Westminster government, and then compared that with one of your own constituents who doesn't have to pay that three thousand pounds in three years, I'd feel pretty cross wouldn't you. REID: Well let me tell you about your hypothetical child John.. HUMPHRYS: ...there's nothing hypothetical about it - there is about the child okay.. REID: ..about your personal plight, that's what we're talking about. First of all your child would be the beneficiary in England of eighty million pounds of extra expenditure if he was a mature student or she was a mature student, or if they came from a low income background. Secondly, if they happen to go to a Scottish University they would not be discriminated against in almost forty per cent of the cases 'cause they pay nothing and thirdly, if you had to pay up front for your child, you would do so in the full knowledge that when that child went out to work, he or she would not have to pay back the endowment as Scottish students will have to pay back when they start to earn. So, there are different mechanisms for applying the general policy in different areas, that's the nature of devolution, but the objective at the end of the day will be met in a way that is suitable for the English students as well as the Scottish students and the facts and figures show that in England there are some five thousand more students going into higher education last year than the year before, so that system is working. HUMPHRYS: Doesn't prove that they like it. It doesn't prove that they want to pay these fees, it simply proves how important people regard university education for their children but the fact is they are going to have to pay the fee in England and Wales, they are not going to have to pay it until many years later, maybe if they are earning a certain amount of money in Scotland. That is manifestly unfair. I don't see how you can suggest otherwise. REID: John, with great respect it is not manifestly unfair, if..well let me reverse the coin then. Is it not manifestly unfair under the new system that students from Scotland who go to a Scottish university will have to pay that money back when they start working, when English students wouldn't. You can argue that is manifestly unfair.. HUMPHRYS: ..only if they're earning twenty-five thousand a year.. REID: ..and the reality is that in both cases the objective from the point of view of the students and the government, or in the case of Scotland, the Scottish Executive, is to make sure that we get more students from a background where they have been excluded from education under the previous government, indeed for fifty years, that's people from low income backgrounds. That is working in England, the fees system is satisfactory there, the numbers are increasing, that is not the case in Scotland because of particular circumstances and the Scottish Executive have decided to address those particular circumstances, this was the purpose of devolution. HUMPHRYS: But I mean the fact is if this parent that I'm trying to describe - if it happened to be me in England or Wales were not happy with the system here and said 'well I'd like the Scottish system for my kids', you couldn't say, 'well alright, as your Cabinet Minister, as a Westminster Cabinet Minister you can have it because you don't live in the right part of the country'. REID: No.... no, John, I'm afraid you're dealing with a situation here where, if the people of England wanted a particular thing they vote for a particular thing...... HUMPHRYS: But they never chose to vote for the other...... REID: Well of course they did, they vote for their own Members of Parliament the same way as the Scottish MSP's are elected by Scottish people. I mean it really is an absurd proposition to say that because you have different systems inherent in devolution that somehow one must be better or worse than the other. One must respond to the circumstances locally whether it is in Wales or whether it is in Northern Ireland, whether it's in Scotland, whether it's in England there are different local circumstances and what devolution is about is in enriching the unity of the United kingdom, modernising a new system of government for a new millennium, making sure that the United kingdom stays united because it is seen to meet the requirements and the needs of people in the regions and the nations. Had we stayed with the old completely centralised system the break up of Britain would have become almost inevitable and Mrs Thatcher and her government, whatever they said about their commitment to the Union, by their actions divided and fractured the whole of the United Kingdom region from region, nation from nation as was patent from the destruction of industries, the impoverishment of local communities. We are now modernising that and making sure thereby that we will strengthen the United Kingdom. There was a quote this morning John - let me just say this because your question is timely - there was a poll, a most significant and substantial poll carried out yet after devolution which showed in Scotland that the Nationalists are now in crisis because the demand for separatism and support for it for the break up of Britain is at a record low this morning. The percentage of supporting....... people who believe we will be part of the United Kingdom in ten years' time is at a record high in Scotland. So devolution is uniting the United Kingdom. It is marginalising the Nationalists, they are now not only choosing to run but divided between those who want to be part of the United Kingdom through devolution and those who want to divorce them from it. HUMPHRYS: Okay. Well let's see what happens in the next election but in the meantime the English and Welsh may look at other things that are happening north of the border and saying - they are better off than we are and if you look at health, just take health as an example, a very big issue south of the border as you know I dare say a much less important issue there because look at the difference in spending. If you live in Scotland eight hundred and sixty pounds a year is what is spent on your health by the NHS. If you live down here it's seven hundred and six pounds per head. Now Donald Dewar your first minister boasts that he is very proud of that. More consultants, more GPs more nurses and all the rest of it. Are you proud of that fact as well, that disparity? REID: Let me take the two aspects that you mention. First of all you say by implication that everyone is healthier in Scotland..... HUMPHRYS: No I didn't.........I said they're getting a better deal. REID: Okay. Let me tell you about the need in particular areas of Scotland which may apply in some areas as well but out of the twenty worst health areas in terms of health, in terms of death and deprivation Glasgow alone has thirteen of them. One city in Scotland has thirteen out of twenty and that is partly why this money is put into Scotland because of the need. (both speaking at once) Secondly let me tell you why per capita expenditure is higher in Scotland rather than just on the basis of need. There is a second point and that is because although Scotland has only eight point seven per cent of the population it is thirty three per cent of the land mass of the United Kingdom therefore expenditure per head in Scotland because of the sparsity of population has to be greater. If you build roads for instance you have to spend more per head...... HUMPHRYS: Well that's a separate issue...... REID: Well it's not. it is an element. Need is one element and the particular aspects of the sparsity of the population and another. And finally Donald Dewar was not boasting about how much had been...... Donald and I were reminding the Scottish people of how much we gain from being part of the United Kingdom. We were saying to those who would separate it, now at a record low in Scotland, we were saying to them 'we benefit from being partners in the United Kingdom as well as contribute towards it'. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well you tell me that thirteen out of the twenty, thirteen of the twenty most deprived areas in health terms are there but I can point you to other areas of Wales as you well know where the same situation applies but they don't get your eight hundred and sixty pounds a head. They get the seven hundred and six pounds a head. Now how do you explain that to them and then how do you explain to them that Tony Blair promises that over a certain period of time we will reach the European level of spending on the NHS. You are already at the European level of spending on the NHS. REID: All you're saying to me John is that it's not sufficient to look at region as against region or nation against region and I agree with that. There are areas of deprivation in the north of England and in Wales and so on which ought to get more money and indeed the government is putting through a social exclusion strategy, our anti-poverty drive, putting money into them, we were criticised for that.... HUMPHRYS: Doesn't say anything about more money for the NHS.......... REID: I fully support what is being done. Well you see health John is not just a matter of the NHS. Health is a matter of social conditions. It is a matter of the causes of ill health as well as the treatment of ill health and that is why the Prime Minister said, only a couple of months ago and I entirely concur with him that it is not sufficient just to say let us look at Scotland versus Wales or one region versus another - we must look at the differences within regions and within nations are there are some very prosperous regions in Scotland, there are some very impoverished regions and I'm aware of the difficulties in Manchester and Liverpool and the North east in terms of the economy and of areas of Wales....... HUMPHRYS: But if you average it out, but if you average it out, you in Scotland are at the European level of spending. Does that mean that, .....well hang on, let me finish the question first, then you can give me the answer. Does that mean that having averaged it out, you now say, because we are at that European level of spending which the Prime Minister clearly thinks is terribly important, Scotland shouldn't have any more money spent on its NHS because you're there already. REID: Well the reason I was going to answer your question John is that I anticipated it. And the answer to it is..... HUMPHRYS: I could disappear altogether then couldn't I?.... REID: .....we put the money in ..... well.....we put money in on the basis of need. Now if there is a factor which influences that apart from need it is of course the per capita expenditure. And if you have a huge land mass with a low population you obviously have to spend a little more per head to compensate for that, that is the derivation of how we spend money, but within regions of course you have to distinguish between particular areas within Scotland, within Wales, and the social exclusion strategy and the poverty strategy is reflected in the amount of money that we put in there as well. If you look at the Department of Social Security, obviously the amount of money that goes into any particular area is directly related to need because the claims stem from need. HUMPHRYS: .....alright, let's ...... REID: ...but the key thing is to modernise this in a fair way and at the end of the day, the most important thing from everyone's point of view is whether the United Kingdom works, and under the partnership of Parliaments, with Holy Rood and Westminster acting together, not as substitutes but supplementing each other, we have a far stronger commitment now to the United Kingdom as that significant survey shows this morning in Scotland. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at one other group of people then, who are most certainly better off in Scotland than they are down here, and that's your MP's. They can vote. Westminster MP's representing Scottish constituencies can vote on matters affecting English constituencies and Welsh, English and Welsh MP's cannot do the same for Scotland, now there is a disparity if ever there was one. REID: Well, I know that you won't mind if I correct your logic John, but actually, Scottish MP's, i.e. me, I cannot vote on the matters that are revolved to the Scottish Parliament any more than an English MP can vote for them. I'm deprived of that right as well, because of devolution. We pass certain areas. So there is no difference between an English MP and I, we can both vote on the rest of the United Kingdom issues, and neither of us can vote for issues that are passed to the Scottish Parliament. HUMPHRYS: No, no, but you can vote on matters to do, being an MP with a Scottish constituency, you can vote on matters to do with the English NHS as it were. An English MP cannot vote on matters to do with Scottish Health. REID: Well, this, I mean, all you are doing is saying there is anomaly here which has been identified by the West Lothian question. I've never said that that wasn't an anomaly. The whole British.... HUMPHRYS: So why don't you do something about it? REID: Well because the whole of the British Constitution has had anomalies throughout it for centuries John, the question isn't whether it is a perfectly logical constitution, one of the benefits of our constitution is that it has been sufficiently flexible to incorporate anomalies to answer the question - does it work? And it does work, empowerment works. That is shown this morning by the commitment now to the United Kingdom from people in Scotland, it is shown by the devolution of power to Wales, and with the grace of God, to Northern Ireland. We hope that continues. But also, to London, we've said we will pass powers to London, there is a great deal of coverage of who will actually implement those executive powers in London, the present, the Mayor and the candidatures, but the reality is power has been passed down and if the regions of England wish to have power passed down as well, they will do it. Now, there will be inconsistencies, of course there will be, because there are different conditions in different regions in cities in the case of London and the United Kingdom - but the question is, does this work? Does it actually give us the output? Is it a modernised constitution for this new Millennium. And just as we are modernising the Welfare State, and we're modernising the economy and the knowledge economy, this government is undertaking the most radical transformation in modernisation of our services and our constitution in three-hundred years...... HUMPHRYS: .......alright, as you say...... REID: .......and it's proving successful. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's look at what is not proving successful and that's the way in which it is operating at the moment, in which politics is operating in Scotland. Now what you said when you set up the new Parliament and all the rest of it, this would be the model for the rest of Britain as to how things, and indeed the same for the Welsh Assembly, as to how things would be done. No more sleaze, no more incompetence, all that sort, and what we have actually seen is a Parliament that appears to be riddled with incompetence of all sorts. It is a shambles to use the phrase of Donald Dewar himself, disappointed and dismayed at the events of the last few weeks. You cannot be pleased with the way things are going in politics, can you? REID: Well what we said John, was that by carrying out the radical transformation, that we would both reinforce the modern United Kingdom and would change the nature of politics in Scotland and Wales and whoever..... HUMPHRYS: ....changed it for the worse, apparently... REID: What we didn't promise John is that we would change either human nature or human competence overnight, or that we would establish a new Parliament which from day one would know how to do everything. Now this is the most radical transformation for three-hundred years. Of course there will be growing pains, of course there will be teething troubles, but we are six months in, all the indications this morning from that major survey are that people are supportive of the new Parliament, what it's doing, we have only just started to deal with the issues through that Parliament. The great issue of Land Reform, that's never been tackled in Scotland, on Transport, on the Health Service, on Employment, and what is the situation on the ground? The situation on the ground is this - that we have the lowest employment in Scotland for a quarter of a century, that we have lowest inflation rate for twenty-six years, we have more jobs being created than ever before, the standard of living is increasing, does that mean we have no problems? No, of course we've got problems, we've got to tackle the Transport system, one of the bills in the Scottish Parliament, we've got to make sure that the Health Service is modernised..... HUMPHRYS: Right, not a great list please, we are just about out of time. But I take your point. John Reid, thank you very much indeed. REID: Thank you very much John.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.