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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first let's go to Scotland.
Not a bad idea, you're likely to have a better Health Service and a cheaper
university education if you do for a start. And that's not only because
the Scots have always had more money from the Exchequer than the English,
but now that they have their own Parliament they can pass laws that give
them other advantages too. The decision taken in Edinburgh last week to
do away with up front tuition fees for students has given the government
here in London an awkward problem: the Scottish tail wagging the British
dog. Well the Scottish Secretary is John Reid, he's in our Glasgow studio.
Good afternoon Mr Reid.
JOHN REID: Good afternoon John.
HUMPHRYS: Now then, the government
is going to have to change its policies because of what you're up to in
Scotland. Can't carry on like this can you?
REID: Well that's not quite
true John. The whole point of devolution was not to give us different objectives.
The objectives in Scotland are exactly the same as they are throughout
the United Kingdom which is to give greater access to people from low income
backgrounds. But the mechanics of it in Scotland can be different in order
to suit local circumstances, so in Scotland they've brought in a series
of measures, in England the fee system is working well. Indeed last year
there was more than five thousand additional students went to higher education.
During the week David Blunkett gave another eighty million pounds to encourage
mature students and those from a low income background to it. So the systems
are different but the objective is the same and because they are different
doesn't mean to say that one discriminates against the other. I mean anymore
than David Blunkett's eighty million additional spending to encourage those
from low income and mature students into higher education discriminates
against the Scots, it doesn't. That's the whole point of devolution. We
can do things differently and better respond to local needs, not only
in Scotland but also in the other nations of the United Kingdom.
HUMPHRYS: Well alright. Let's accept
for the moment that the system is different and not the policy. Though
most people say that clearly the policy is different. Do you think that
the government's policy, the Westminster Government's policy to save any
confusion, and system, on tuition fees is the right one, is right, do you
support it?
REID: Yes I do, of course
I support it.
HUMPHRYS: Well the other one's
wrong isn't it.
REID: No John, you seem
to think that if you have a common objective everyone must have the same
policy. I mean this is what amuses me, because people like your good selves
spend half your time telling us the government are control freaks who want
to control everything from the centre and the other half criticising us
when we allow people to do things their own way according to local circumstances.
Because things are different doesn't mean - or applied in a different way
- doesn't mean to say that's inherently wrong. That's in the nature of
the devolution settlement which is intended above all to modernise our
constitution. The most radical change for three hundred years and to replace
the attitude of a government which for the past twenty years under the
Tories was dividing and breaking up Britain precisely because they would
not pay attention to the feelings of those from the nations and the regions
within the United Kingdom.
HUMPHRYS: Well I tell you what,
if I had a University age child and I was living in England or Wales and
I had to pay a thousand pounds in tuition fees a year, three thousand pounds
for three years and then you came along to me, as a Cabinet Minister, one
of my Cabinet ministers 'cause you are in my Westminster government, and
then compared that with one of your own constituents who doesn't have to
pay that three thousand pounds in three years, I'd feel pretty cross wouldn't
you.
REID: Well let me tell
you about your hypothetical child John..
HUMPHRYS: ...there's nothing hypothetical
about it - there is about the child okay..
REID: ..about your personal
plight, that's what we're talking about. First of all your child would
be the beneficiary in England of eighty million pounds of extra expenditure
if he was a mature student or she was a mature student, or if they came
from a low income background. Secondly, if they happen to go to a Scottish
University they would not be discriminated against in almost forty per
cent of the cases 'cause they pay nothing and thirdly, if you had to pay
up front for your child, you would do so in the full knowledge that when
that child went out to work, he or she would not have to pay back the endowment
as Scottish students will have to pay back when they start to earn. So,
there are different mechanisms for applying the general policy in different
areas, that's the nature of devolution, but the objective at the end of
the day will be met in a way that is suitable for the English students
as well as the Scottish students and the facts and figures show that in
England there are some five thousand more students going into higher education
last year than the year before, so that system is working.
HUMPHRYS: Doesn't prove that they
like it. It doesn't prove that they want to pay these fees, it simply proves
how important people regard university education for their children but
the fact is they are going to have to pay the fee in England and Wales,
they are not going to have to pay it until many years later, maybe if they
are earning a certain amount of money in Scotland. That is manifestly unfair.
I don't see how you can suggest otherwise.
REID: John, with great
respect it is not manifestly unfair, if..well let me reverse the coin then.
Is it not manifestly unfair under the new system that students from Scotland
who go to a Scottish university will have to pay that money back when they
start working, when English students wouldn't. You can argue that is manifestly
unfair..
HUMPHRYS: ..only if they're earning
twenty-five thousand a year..
REID: ..and the reality
is that in both cases the objective from the point of view of the students
and the government, or in the case of Scotland, the Scottish Executive,
is to make sure that we get more students from a background where they
have been excluded from education under the previous government, indeed
for fifty years, that's people from low income backgrounds. That is working
in England, the fees system is satisfactory there, the numbers are increasing,
that is not the case in Scotland because of particular circumstances and
the Scottish Executive have decided to address those particular circumstances,
this was the purpose of devolution.
HUMPHRYS: But I mean the fact is
if this parent that I'm trying to describe - if it happened to be me in
England or Wales were not happy with the system here and said 'well I'd
like the Scottish system for my kids', you couldn't say, 'well alright,
as your Cabinet Minister, as a Westminster Cabinet Minister you can have
it because you don't live in the right part of the country'.
REID: No.... no, John,
I'm afraid you're dealing with a situation here where, if the people of
England wanted a particular thing they vote for a particular thing......
HUMPHRYS: But they never chose
to vote for the other......
REID: Well of course they
did, they vote for their own Members of Parliament the same way as the
Scottish MSP's are elected by Scottish people. I mean it really is an
absurd proposition to say that because you have different systems inherent
in devolution that somehow one must be better or worse than the other.
One must respond to the circumstances locally whether it is in Wales or
whether it is in Northern Ireland, whether it's in Scotland, whether it's
in England there are different local circumstances and what devolution
is about is in enriching the unity of the United kingdom, modernising a
new system of government for a new millennium, making sure that the United
kingdom stays united because it is seen to meet the requirements and the
needs of people in the regions and the nations. Had we stayed with the
old completely centralised system the break up of Britain would have become
almost inevitable and Mrs Thatcher and her government, whatever they said
about their commitment to the Union, by their actions divided and fractured
the whole of the United Kingdom region from region, nation from nation
as was patent from the destruction of industries, the impoverishment of
local communities. We are now modernising that and making sure thereby
that we will strengthen the United Kingdom.
There was a quote this morning
John - let me just say this because your question is timely - there was
a poll, a most significant and substantial poll carried out yet after devolution
which showed in Scotland that the Nationalists are now in crisis because
the demand for separatism and support for it for the break up of Britain
is at a record low this morning. The percentage of supporting....... people
who believe we will be part of the United Kingdom in ten years' time is
at a record high in Scotland. So devolution is uniting the United Kingdom.
It is marginalising the Nationalists, they are now not only choosing to
run but divided between those who want to be part of the United Kingdom
through devolution and those who want to divorce them from it.
HUMPHRYS: Okay. Well let's see
what happens in the next election but in the meantime the English and Welsh
may look at other things that are happening north of the border and saying
- they are better off than we are and if you look at health, just take
health as an example, a very big issue south of the border as you know
I dare say a much less important issue there because look at the difference
in spending. If you live in Scotland eight hundred and sixty pounds a
year is what is spent on your health by the NHS. If you live down here
it's seven hundred and six pounds per head. Now Donald Dewar your first
minister boasts that he is very proud of that. More consultants, more
GPs more nurses and all the rest of it. Are you proud of that fact as
well, that disparity?
REID: Let me take the two
aspects that you mention. First of all you say by implication that everyone
is healthier in Scotland.....
HUMPHRYS: No I didn't.........I
said they're getting a better deal.
REID: Okay. Let me tell
you about the need in particular areas of Scotland which may apply in some
areas as well but out of the twenty worst health areas in terms of health,
in terms of death and deprivation Glasgow alone has thirteen of them.
One city in Scotland has thirteen out of twenty and that is partly why
this money is put into Scotland because of the need. (both speaking at
once) Secondly let me tell you why per capita expenditure is higher in
Scotland rather than just on the basis of need. There is a second point
and that is because although Scotland has only eight point seven per cent
of the population it is thirty three per cent of the land mass of the United
Kingdom therefore expenditure per head in Scotland because of the sparsity
of population has to be greater. If you build roads for instance you have
to spend more per head......
HUMPHRYS: Well that's a separate
issue......
REID: Well it's not. it
is an element. Need is one element and the particular aspects of the sparsity
of the population and another. And finally Donald Dewar was not boasting
about how much had been...... Donald and I were reminding the Scottish
people of how much we gain from being part of the United Kingdom. We were
saying to those who would separate it, now at a record low in Scotland,
we were saying to them 'we benefit from being partners in the United Kingdom
as well as contribute towards it'.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well you tell
me that thirteen out of the twenty, thirteen of the twenty most deprived
areas in health terms are there but I can point you to other areas of Wales
as you well know where the same situation applies but they don't get your
eight hundred and sixty pounds a head. They get the seven hundred and
six pounds a head. Now how do you explain that to them and then how do
you explain to them that Tony Blair promises that over a certain period
of time we will reach the European level of spending on the NHS. You are
already at the European level of spending on the NHS.
REID: All you're saying
to me John is that it's not sufficient to look at region as against region
or nation against region and I agree with that. There are areas of deprivation
in the north of England and in Wales and so on which ought to get more
money and indeed the government is putting through a social exclusion strategy,
our anti-poverty drive, putting money into them, we were criticised for
that....
HUMPHRYS: Doesn't say anything
about more money for the NHS..........
REID: I fully support what
is being done. Well you see health John is not just a matter of the NHS.
Health is a matter of social conditions. It is a matter of the causes
of ill health as well as the treatment of ill health and that is why the
Prime Minister said, only a couple of months ago and I entirely concur
with him that it is not sufficient just to say let us look at Scotland
versus Wales or one region versus another - we must look at the differences
within regions and within nations are there are some very prosperous regions
in Scotland, there are some very impoverished regions and I'm aware of
the difficulties in Manchester and Liverpool and the North east in terms
of the economy and of areas of Wales.......
HUMPHRYS: But if you average it
out, but if you average it out, you in Scotland are at the European level
of spending. Does that mean that, .....well hang on, let me finish the
question first, then you can give me the answer. Does that mean that
having averaged it out, you now say, because we are at that European level
of spending which the Prime Minister clearly thinks is terribly important,
Scotland shouldn't have any more money spent on its NHS because you're
there already.
REID: Well the reason I
was going to answer your question John is that I anticipated it. And the
answer to it is.....
HUMPHRYS: I could disappear altogether
then couldn't I?....
REID: .....we put the money
in ..... well.....we put money in on the basis of need. Now if there is
a factor which influences that apart from need it is of course the per
capita expenditure. And if you have a huge land mass with a low population
you obviously have to spend a little more per head to compensate for that,
that is the derivation of how we spend money, but within regions of course
you have to distinguish between particular areas within Scotland, within
Wales, and the social exclusion strategy and the poverty strategy is reflected
in the amount of money that we put in there as well. If you look at the
Department of Social Security, obviously the amount of money that goes
into any particular area is directly related to need because the claims
stem from need.
HUMPHRYS: .....alright, let's ......
REID: ...but the key thing
is to modernise this in a fair way and at the end of the day, the most
important thing from everyone's point of view is whether the United Kingdom
works, and under the partnership of Parliaments, with Holy Rood and Westminster
acting together, not as substitutes but supplementing each other, we have
a far stronger commitment now to the United Kingdom as that significant
survey shows this morning in Scotland.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at one other
group of people then, who are most certainly better off in Scotland than
they are down here, and that's your MP's. They can vote. Westminster
MP's representing Scottish constituencies can vote on matters affecting
English constituencies and Welsh, English and Welsh MP's cannot do the
same for Scotland, now there is a disparity if ever there was one.
REID: Well, I know that
you won't mind if I correct your logic John, but actually, Scottish MP's,
i.e. me, I cannot vote on the matters that are revolved to the Scottish
Parliament any more than an English MP can vote for them. I'm deprived
of that right as well, because of devolution. We pass certain areas.
So there is no difference between an English MP and I, we can both vote
on the rest of the United Kingdom issues, and neither of us can vote for
issues that are passed to the Scottish Parliament.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, but you can vote
on matters to do, being an MP with a Scottish constituency, you can vote
on matters to do with the English NHS as it were. An English MP cannot
vote on matters to do with Scottish Health.
REID: Well, this, I mean,
all you are doing is saying there is anomaly here which has been identified
by the West Lothian question. I've never said that that wasn't an anomaly.
The whole British....
HUMPHRYS: So why don't you do something
about it?
REID: Well because the
whole of the British Constitution has had anomalies throughout it for centuries
John, the question isn't whether it is a perfectly logical constitution,
one of the benefits of our constitution is that it has been sufficiently
flexible to incorporate anomalies to answer the question - does it work?
And it does work, empowerment works. That is shown this morning by the
commitment now to the United Kingdom from people in Scotland, it is shown
by the devolution of power to Wales, and with the grace of God, to Northern
Ireland. We hope that continues. But also, to London, we've said we
will pass powers to London, there is a great deal of coverage of who will
actually implement those executive powers in London, the present, the Mayor
and the candidatures, but the reality is power has been passed down and
if the regions of England wish to have power passed down as well, they
will do it. Now, there will be inconsistencies, of course there will be,
because there are different conditions in different regions in cities in
the case of London and the United Kingdom - but the question is, does this
work? Does it actually give us the output? Is it a modernised constitution
for this new Millennium. And just as we are modernising the Welfare State,
and we're modernising the economy and the knowledge economy, this government
is undertaking the most radical transformation in modernisation of our
services and our constitution in three-hundred years......
HUMPHRYS: .......alright, as you
say......
REID: .......and it's proving
successful.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's look at what
is not proving successful and that's the way in which it is operating at
the moment, in which politics is operating in Scotland. Now what you said
when you set up the new Parliament and all the rest of it, this would be
the model for the rest of Britain as to how things, and indeed the same
for the Welsh Assembly, as to how things would be done. No more sleaze,
no more incompetence, all that sort, and what we have actually seen is
a Parliament that appears to be riddled with incompetence of all sorts.
It is a shambles to use the phrase of Donald Dewar himself, disappointed
and dismayed at the events of the last few weeks. You cannot be pleased
with the way things are going in politics, can you?
REID: Well what we said
John, was that by carrying out the radical transformation, that we would
both reinforce the modern United Kingdom and would change the nature of
politics in Scotland and Wales and whoever.....
HUMPHRYS: ....changed it for the
worse, apparently...
REID: What we didn't promise
John is that we would change either human nature or human competence overnight,
or that we would establish a new Parliament which from day one would know
how to do everything. Now this is the most radical transformation for
three-hundred years. Of course there will be growing pains, of course
there will be teething troubles, but we are six months in, all the indications
this morning from that major survey are that people are supportive of the
new Parliament, what it's doing, we have only just started to deal with
the issues through that Parliament. The great issue of Land Reform, that's
never been tackled in Scotland, on Transport, on the Health Service, on
Employment, and what is the situation on the ground? The situation on
the ground is this - that we have the lowest employment in Scotland for
a quarter of a century, that we have lowest inflation rate for twenty-six
years, we have more jobs being created than ever before, the standard of
living is increasing, does that mean we have no problems? No, of course
we've got problems, we've got to tackle the Transport system, one of the
bills in the Scottish Parliament, we've got to make sure that the Health
Service is modernised.....
HUMPHRYS: Right, not a great list please,
we are just about out of time. But I take your point. John Reid, thank
you very much indeed.
REID: Thank you very much
John.
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