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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Tomorrow the Canadian General
John de Chastelaine will produce a report that will have profound implications
for the future of peace in Northern Ireland. He will tell the government
what progress he believes has been made in decommissioning terrorist weapons.
Not since the peace process began has a report been awaited with more
trepidation. David Trimble, the first minister, has given his Ulster Unionist
Party a post-dated letter containing his resignation. When he signed it,
it was understood by many in his party that that resignation would take
effect if the IRA had not begun to get rid of its weapons. Mr Trimble
is in our Belfast studio.
Good afternoon Mr Trimble.
JOHN TRIMBLE: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: Can I be clear about
this, if the de Chastelaine Report tomorrow says the IRA has not begun
to get rid of its weapons, will you resign?
TRIMBLE: Let's put this into context.
Under the agreement the IRA and other paramilitaries should have started
decommissioning in June of 1998, two years ago. But even last November
they still hadn't done anything. But we decided to take a risk, we decided
that we'd go ahead, form the Executive, give them every opportunity, create
for them the best possible context in which to proceed and we did that,
it wasn't easy, but we did it and we gave the Republicans and others the
opportunity to respond. Now they knew when we did it because during the
Mitchell Review we said again and again to them and they
fully understood this, that our capacity to sustain the administration
with people in it who have not demonstrated a commitment to peaceful means
was extremely limited and that we expected to run out of road, after only
a month or two. Now that inevitability is coming. The means by which it
comes is less important, whether it comes as a result of the Secretary
of State intervening to suspend the institutions, ourselves walking away,
or indeed ourselves being taken away, that really doesn't matter. But what
is absolutely clear and was clear through the Mitchell Review was that
if we took the first step, others would have to follow, other people would
have to follow that, very quickly. But that unfortunately has not yet happened.
It's possible it still could happen and I hope very much that the Republican
movement realise that this best chance that they have mustn't be thrown
away.
HUMPHRYS: But it is not likely,
is it, you heard what Gerry Adams had to say this morning and what you
said in November, in that letter, a letter to your council, the next report,
tomorrow's report that is will indicate if actual decommissioning has occurred
or not. If it has not, then Sinn Fein will be deemed to have defaulted.
So, to be quite clear, no actual decommissioning means that Sinn Fein will
have defaulted. That is the position as you see it.
TRIMBLE: That was the very clear
understanding in the Mitchell process. That we would move first and would
given them the opportunity to follow, if they could, but if they can't,
then obviously we cannot sustain this system based on the assumption that
they are committed to peace, when they fail to do so. So I think that those
are the inevitabilities. But look, let's not just count things out until
we have reached that last minute. Let's just wait and see. It is still
possible that the Republicans could take the necessary action to demonstrate
their commitment to peace and democracy by beginning the process of decommissioning
because that is what people want, that is what people voted for. The huge
majorities in the referendum, the equally huge majorities in recent opinion
polls, people want a genuine peace, with an absence of paramilitiarisms,
with an absence of paramilitaries and their weapons. Now, let us hope
that even in this last hours, the Republican movement will live up to the
exceptions it created.
HUMPHRYS: Well two hours' ago,
Gerry Adams was holding out no hope for that whatsoever, that's to say
that actual decommissioning will have begun so in that event we assume,
do we?, do you?, that Peter Mandelson will suspend, and the Irish Government
of course, British and Irish Governments, will suspend the institutions,
the assembly, the executive in Northern Ireland?
TRIMBLE: Those were the undertakings
that Peter Mandelson gave to the House of Commons and to us.
HUMPHRYS: The effect of that
suspension then will be, and I quote Gerry Adams this morning, two hours'
ago, in that event decommissioning will never happen.
TRIMBLE: Well in that case, Mr
Adams is repudiating the agreement. And I hope that he will reconsider
that because he committed himself to that agreement. He committed himself
to decommissioning, he undertook a obligation to do it as soon as possible,
that was the outcome of the Mitchell review. There is an obligation upon
him. We implemented the agreement to give him every opportunity to do so.
The agreement cannot survive if it is not implemented by everybody. The
only thing left to be done is that which has to be done by Republicans.
So I hope that Mr Adams isn't going to walk away from the effort that we
have been engaged on over the last nearly two years now. But it's up to
him of course and his movement. If he can't get it to deliver, then that
tells us something about the nature of the organisation that he's been
fronting.
HUMPHRYS: If it happens, if suspension
happens, let me quote Mr Adams again: "a political vacuum will have been
created which would leave us all hostages". Now the implication of
that is clear, the implication of that is that we may go back to the worst
of the bad old days. Isn't that too high a price to pay?.
TRIMBLE: Well if Mr Adams and his
associates wish to inflict violence upon us, then that is their choice
and their decision. I don't actually think it is and I think you are reading
too much into those comments, because I know that there are no people that
I' aware, among the Nationalist community who want to see themselves
plunged back into conflict because of a handful of unreconstructed militarists
who won't accept the democratic choice. So let's not read too much into
this and let's not run too far ahead with these apocalyptic prognostications.
Let us take it step by step, as we have done, as we are continuing to do,
we know what was agreed, we know what the understanding were, we took the
risks, we took the risk, it really is time for the Republican Movement
itself to demonstrate its good faith and to take some risks also.
HUMPHRYS: But there is clearly
a great risk involved, clearly, in suspending everything in Northern Ireland.
What makes you believe that Peter Mandelson will face that risk and will
carry out the suspension. What undertaking has he given you?
TRIMBLE: He gave a promise to the
House of Commons. In our political system, in our democracy that is the
best assurance anybody can have. We all depend upon that. All of in this
process in this country of ours, we all depend upon the probity of our
leading politicians and the promises they make in the Commons to the people.
That's what we depend upon, that's what I've been depending upon when
I took the risk that I did in asking my party to stretch itself in a quite
remarkable way. We have taken the risks, we're not scared of taking risks
but what we're not going to do and I think people need to understand this,
we can't allow the democratic process to be corrupted from within by saying
that we're going to forget about the existence of a paramilitary organisation,
we're going to forget about the guns and the bombs that turned up in the
hands of militant Republicans a few days ago which were removed from an
IRA dump in Tipperary, we're going to forget about the intimidation of
Pommeroy at Carrickmore and all these undemocratic practices and pretend
that all is well when it's not - that would be taking an even greater risk
with the health of society and the future of everybody who wanted and who
voted and who worked for a genuine peace. So let us keep our clear mind
on the context and not let ourselves be influenced by the implicit threats
that come unfortunately from some elements in the Republican movement.
HUMPHRYS: But your problem may
be, everybody's problem may be how you define Mr Mandelson's approach to
Sinn Fein defaulting. You see he said, only as you know a couple of days
ago, 'what matters' and I'm quoting him here 'is the decommissioning is
on track and not going backwards', so clearly he doesn't share your view
that decommissioning must actually have started. That was a very modest
aspiration - 'on track and not going backwards'.
TRIMBLE: I think I would just advise
to wait and see. We know what we talked about both in the review with
Republicans, with the government, because the government was a party to
that review too and we talked to them and over the weeks of the review
we talked these things through at length and it is on the confidence of
the assurances that were given to me that I am proceeding and indeed it
was because of those assurances that I took the risk in the first place
and the expectations that were there were created not just by government
but by other parties as well. We took the risk, we demonstrated our willingness
to go more than just an extra mile and unfortunately what we've seen over
the last two months is virtually no movement at all. Now we can't sustain
a process like this and that's the reality. At the end of the day politics
have got to come back to the realities. The realities are that without
a response from the Republican movement this cannot be sustained and indeed
I doubt even whether it would be right to try to sustain it if the Republican
movement are going to let everybody down as comprehensively as your questions
assume. But I come back to the other point; I must come back to the other
point. Let us not write things off prematurely. There may be just a day
or two left but even in a day or two things can happen which will enable
us to proceed and there's still time for the Republican movement to demonstrate
whether or not they have sufficient good faith to enable people to continue
with it.
HUMPHRYS: But you will be satisfied only
with actual decommissioning. Do you really expect that to happen within
the next twenty four, forty-eight hours?
TRIMBLE: There was a senior Republican
who very early on in this process speaking not to me but to the British
government said that 'when we decide to decommission we can do it in half
an hour'. In half an hour - once they decide. So come on let them decide.
Let them do it.
HUMPHRYS: But Gerry Adams says
he gave you no assurances about that.
TRIMBLE: Mr Adams knows the basis
on which we proceeded. Mr Adams knows that we could only have sustained
it for so long. He was told again and again and again. Mr Adams gave
us assurances about the efforts that he would make and as to what he was
trying to achieve. Let us hope that he succeeds.
HUMPHRYS: But he's appealing to
you not to play hard ball and go to the wire as he put it this morning.
That's an appeal from him directly to you.
TRIMBLE: Well I think we can all
have our views as to who is playing hard ball and who's delaying things
and taking it down to the wire and who took the risks and who is hanging
back. Now let us just not run ahead of ourselves. There is still sufficient
time for this to succeed but we have done our bit. We've done all that
we can do.
HUMPHRYS: But to go back to my
question right at the beginning - if it doesn't happen are you still prepared
to resign? Is that still on the table?
TRIMBLE: There will be consequences
if the Review fails. That is obvious and as for me that's a minor detail.
As to whether I'm in office, out of office, leading the party, not leading
the party my own personal circumstances are irrelevant to me. What is
important is that we succeed if it is possible and that we make sure that
we don't corrupt the political process by trying too hard to succeed with
people who are patently not committed to peace and democracy.
HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thank
you very much indeed.
And that's it for this week. Until the same time next week - good afternoon.
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