BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 06.02.00

Film: The European Union Inter Governmental Conference%3A is Britain about to fall out with Brussels over EU reform?



PAOLA BUONADONNA: Europe faces one of its hardest challenges this year...After four decades its institutions need to move on and reform to allow 13 more countries to join. It needs to become more efficient -- and more accountable. Here at the European Parliament democratically elected MEPs from all the 15 countries of the Union meet to give their opinion on legislation, and they can modify or reject some bills. ANTONIO GUTERRES: It is obvious that the way the Union is ruled today, the way it works it would no longer be possible with about 30 or probably even more that thirty countries in the Union so we have to reform the institutions. BUONADONNA: The Commission is the Union's executive body. Its 20 members, drawn from the 15 states, initiate legislation and implement it once its been approved. Recent corruption scandals have done nothing to improve its popularity. But its here, in the Council of Ministers that the real power lies ... representatives from the 15 countries gather in this building to discuss every policy, from farming to finance. In the most sensitive areas each minister still has a veto. Their new task of reforming the institutions, will take at least a year. They will have to fight their own corner on a painful series of compromises. MICHAEL BARNIER: Any negotiation involves compromise, and I don't reject this word - it doesn't mean that anyone is going to be humiliated. Each party gains because everyone gains. We have a serious and historic responsibility, this is why I call it 'the moment of truth' for the European Union. BUONADONNA: The negotiations are called the Intergovernmental Conference or IGC. It will be in this room that ministers and diplomats will begin the IGC in a week's time. For Britain it's a moment of truth. Next week the government will present its plans for the IGC. It will have to tread a difficult line between the requests of its partners who want a deeper more integrated Europe, its own desire to be at the heart of Europe the danger of giving any ammunition to Eurosceptics who will challenge any concessions made to other countries. FRANCIS MAUDE: Well, Tony Blair's got to start standing up for Britain. For two and a half years now he's just gone with the flow, everything they've proposed he's gone along with, he wants to give up power all the time apparently in the vain pursuit of influence. Well he, Tony Blair has got to understand that leadership is about standing up for what Britain's interests are - that you gain influence by having power, you don't gain it by giving power up. BUONADONNA: The Labour government has been trying to agree a common stance on Europe with the Liberal Democrats - in May last year they agreed an initiative on defence. This week they've come out with a document setting out a joint strategy on the IGC. CAMPBELL: There's always a trade-off for British governments between domestic considerations and taking a proper place in Europe. It's part, I think, of the British psychology that this should be the case. But there's an opportunity here. There's an opportunity for a Prime Minister with a majority of a hundred and seventy nine, who still stands astride the British political stage. Mr Blair can and should show leadership in Europe, it will be in his interest and in the interests of the people of the United Kingdom as well. BUONADONNA: But out in the negotiating arena the European players face some tough challenges. The first is the suggestion that more decisions should be taken by a substantial majority rather than a unanimous vote when ministers tackle issues in the Council. Both the European Commission and most member states want this to happen. The UK accepts this but Tony Blair says he'll block any moves to give up the veto on any aspects of taxation, defence, border controls or social security. BARNIER: I don't think there is any reason to be afraid of the qualified majority if it enables us to decide on certain policies together. You ask me what are the limits: the limits as far as issues of taxation are concerned is that we propose only to decide by qualified majority on taxation on areas linked to the efficient functioning of the internal market. All of us, the UK, France , Germany and all the other member states have agreed to the creation of a single market in the interest of the companies, employees and consumers. Where there are taxes directly related to the efficient functioning of the rules of competition between us we propose to get rid of the obstacle of unanimity. BUONADONNA: Britain has come under pressure from its partners around the European table to introduce a new tax on savings which would upset the City. The government has been relying on its power to veto any tax changes. But even some government supporters concede that for other aspects of taxation the veto could be removed. MARTIN: We say enlargement should continue to require unanimity and certain sensitive issues like aspects of taxation and social security should require unanimity but beyond those sort of core issues then everything else should routinely be done by not a simple majority but a qualified majority vote. MAUDE: I think losing the veto over tax matters would be quite wrong - I mean I don't think we could contemplate that for a second. Because when you think about it, in a democracy the most vital link there is between legislators and the public is tax. BUONADONNA: Another controversial set of reforms involves freezing the number of Commissioners - there's already a team of 20 and there'll be more when Europe is enlarged. At the moment big countries have two commissioners and they're willing to lose one, provided they get more voting power in the Council of Ministers, to reflect more realistically the size of their population. Small countries are willing to give up some votes in exchange for keeping their one commissioner in the team. But there is even a suggestion that no country would be guaranteed a commissioner and the positions would instead rotate between the 15 members. BARNIER: That option means that you would have a stable number of commissioner, 20 commissioners, who each perform their functions based on a system of rotation under which each country would be on equal footing with the rest. There could be times when a particular country did not have a national representative on the commission but perhaps that would be better than having a weak commission. MAUDE: We want to have a smaller commission, but I think it would be quite unacceptable, at any rate for the five countries that currently have two commissioners, not at least to have one Commissioner permanently. BUONADONNA: The country currently in the driving seat in the Council of ministers is Portugal. This former imperial power does not rule the world these days - but for the next six months it has the Presidency of the Union and will be in charge of the Inter Governmental Conference. The Portuguese Government wants an ambitious agenda for the negotiations. The Socialist Prime Minister Antonio Guterres is a friend of Tony Blair but he has a much bolder vision of what Europe should be about. Like the European Commission, he wants to use this opportunity to push ahead for faster and deeper with integration. ANTONIO GUTERRES: I think we will need not only changes in the bodies themselves, the institutions themselves, but also in the decision making process, making it more easy to have decisions by qualified majority and more easy to allow a group of countries to go deeper in European integration if, even if all will not be ready to do so. BUONADONNA: The way Portugal and other member states hope to win that is by reinforced co-operation or flexibility - where a group of countries can decide to push ahead with further integration even if other countries want to put the proposal on ice and opt out - just as with the single currency. Last year eleven countries joined the Euro leaving Britain and three others behind. The danger for Tony Blair is that flexibility could mean Britain finds itself further sidelined as the core Euroland countries move ahead in other areas. GUTERRES: The British Government is doing a lot in order to have a very positive role in the European construction, we fully appreciate it. In my opinion when a country is interested in belonging to a Union and at the same time is interested in preserving some specific areas I think it would be much easier to accept a reinforced co-operation or a mechanism of flexibility than to accept a decision-making process with a qualified majority, because if there is a qualified majority of course all countries will be forced to do according to what is decided by the majority if there is a reinforced co-operation it means it will allow some countries to move forward but will allow others to be out, as it is now the case for Britain with the Euro. DAVID MARTIN: The only reason that I can imagine the British government worries about flexibility is that they accepted the argument that sooner or later Britain always signs up for European initiatives so they are worried if nine or ten countries go ahead and create a new policy on their own that sooner or later Britain will join. Again, I don't fully accept that argument - either we'll join because it is in our interest to join and then good news, that we allowed the other nine or ten to be the pioneers in this, or if it doesn't become in our interest we won't join, I think there is unnecessary caution here on the part of the British government. BUONADONNA: It's not just Tony Blair's allies spurring him on - the new Shadow Foreign Secretary, Francis Maude has already assured Commissioner Barnier that the Conservatives welcome flexibility. But they interpret it as allowing countries to pick and choose which new rules they're prepared to accept. Conservatives hope flexibility will eventually lead to a looser, shallower Union. MAUDE: Tony Blair has this absurd view, he says there's only two ways, two types of relationship with Europe - one is to accept everything - Social Chapter, the Euro Army, the Single Currency all of that, to go with the flow on all of that; and he says if you don't do that, if you don't buy the whole super state package, then you must want to be out of it altogether - and that's ridiculous. The moderate, mainstream, common sense approach is to say you can be in it, without having to accept everything that comes out of Brussels and without having to be run by Europe. And you know, that's the common sense approach and flexibility will be crucial to that. BUONADONNA: The Conservative view of flexibility has found little support so far in Brussels. Those influential with the Government argue it shouldn't be frightened to embrace the European concept of flexibility. GRANT: I think the Conservatives maybe like the idea of flexibility because they do not want Britain to be part of many European projects for integration, they want Britain to be left out, so they're very happy to have flexible structures that allow Britain to stay out. I understand why the Government's against that because they don't want Britain to become a semi-detached member of the European Union. I'm taking a more positive view on flexibility. I think flexibility could be a good idea not because Britain should stay outside but because some of the new countries in Eastern Europe won't have strong enough economies to actually take part in all the EU policies. BUONADONNA: These fundamental reforms in Europe put Tony Blair in an awkward position at home. The year-long negotiations will inevitably generate a stream of negative stories on Europe, which will be seized upon by the opposition. And the conclusion of the process, when the hard decisions will have to be made could come uncomfortably close to the date of the next general election. MARTIN: There are two ways of dealing with that - one, you could wish it goes away and try and play it as low key as possible but Europe never ends up being a low key issue, or you can say let us prepare public opinion now, let's have the debates now and let's explain to the public what we are trying to achieve through this process. And I would very much urge on the Prime Minister the latter course, we should be going public now on what the IGC is about. CAMPBELL: Right at the beginning when he went into Number Ten Downing Street, Mr Blair sought to emphasise the commitment of the Labour party to Europe. The Liberal Democrat commitment is long standing. But from time to time Mr Blair has seemed to be a little less warm towards Europe than his earlier statements might have suggested. The Liberal Democrats want to encourage him to show leadership in this matter, not to be timid and not in any way to be deflected by sections of the popular press here in the United Kingdom. BUONADONNA: Europe must move on the reforms and fast - its own credibility is at stake in this process. Every country will have to accept some painful compromises. The challenge for the British government is to persuade the public that the reforms are not just another plot from the corridors of Brussels to grab more power.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.