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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first ... Northern Ireland.
By Friday the British Government will have the power to suspend the fledgling
government in Belfast. It could be the end of the assembly, the executive
and all the other bodies that were set up as a result of the Good Friday
Agreement. If that does NOT happen, then the Ulster Unionists will bring
it down. UNLESS, that is, the IRA can be persuaded to begin the process
of getting rid of its weapons. The statement it issued yesterday fell far
short of what the Unionists and the government want. So where now? The
chairman of Sinn Fein is Mitchel McLaughlin and he's in our Fail studio.
Mr McLaughlin, what needs to be done now, to save the peace process?
MITCHEL McLAUGHLIN: Well I think people should
actually work the political structures to solve the outstanding problems.
I think collapsing them is, you know, a totally counterproductive approach.
HUMPHRYS: The IRA statement said
the issue of arms needs to be dealt with and I quote "in an acceptable
way, this will not be on British or Unionist terms". That means, doesn't
it, no chance of anything happening this week.
McLAUGHLIN: Well I think we need to be
careful why we are talking about it this week, because in fact we are giving
ourselves a much different timetable to deal with this and we agreed a
much different timetable. The crisis is not about the decommissioning issue,
with respect, it's about the fact that there is a unilateral threat to
walk away from the political process and in response it appears the British
government is prepared to enter into default of the Good Friday Agreement
to give cover, if you like, to David Trimble, I think that's where the
crisis is coming from.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but it's arisen
because the IRA have not even begun the process of getting rid of weapons
and we all know that the deadline of getting rid of all of them is May
22nd. That's why we have a crisis and that's why the Ulster Unionists are
saying, look something has got to be done.
McLAUGHLIN: Well if people want to tear
up the political agreement because you know we should remember the wise
words of George Mitchell, only in November last, when he said that the
one guarantee and no commitments were given as IRA made clear, but the
one guarantee that was available to us all is that if we do not have the
political institutions there will never be decommissioning. Now not even
Peter Mandelson can pretend that this legislation is going to solve that
problem of decommissioning, will actually make an already difficult problem
an impossible problem in my view.
HUMPHRYS: So, to be quite clear
about this. If the government is looking for, and this is the expression
it uses: 'certainty and clarity' by the end of this week, it is looking
in vain, it is not going to happen in your view?
McLAUGHLIN: John, I am trying to draw attention
to the course of action that Peter Mandelson has set and the very huge
implications that has for ever resolving this issue. If we commit ourselves
and we all have done so in the Good Friday Agreement to solving these problems
through the political process, then we have to protect, we have build up
and we have to develop confidence amongst each other that these political
structures will work. Now we have only had them for eight weeks and you
know everyone recognises that there was default even in setting them up,
but to expect after eight weeks that we would have resolved those problems,
some of which have been around for many, many generations, that we could
solve them in eight weeks is na�ve in the extreme. We should keep our patience,
we should keep our nerve and keep working through the political structures
and demand of those, including Sinn Fein, we have a mandate that we deliver
on all of the expectations.
HUMPHRYS: But let's be quite clear.
In your view, if it does not happen by the end of the week, if the British
government doesn't get this clarity and certainty that it's talking about,
then that's it. I mean there is not going to be that clarity and certainty.
No question about that by the end of the week, in your view.
McLAUGHLIN: Well I mean I think there is
going to be clarity in one respect and I think the IRA have actually stated
their position very clearly. The British government have acknowledged that
there is no default by Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein have made it clear and I think
we need clarity from Peter Mandelson, is he consciously, is he deliberately
taking the government, the British government outside the terms of an international
agreement because if that is the case, then could there be a more disastrous
or negative message sent back in to those constituencies who actually have
guns, that have control over guns and we have been trying to convince should
actually surrender those guns, should consider destroying those guns in
the interest of a democratic settlement? The British government, I think,
are making a very, very serious mistake under the blackmail of effective
withdrawal by the Unionists and that really is where the crisis is coming
from, because we all understood that we needed longer to sort that this
very, very difficult problem of disarmament.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, so it's not
going to happen by the end of the week, you make it quite clear. Now, if
the Unionists could be persuaded to carry on because as you say, you use
rather stronger language than this, but as you say the government is under
a certain amount of pressure because of the Unionist views - I'm not debating
their views for the moment. But if they could be persuaded to carry on
with the Assembly and the Executive and all the rest of it, until May 22nd,
which is when decommissioning is supposed to have happened, supposed to
have been completed, do you believe that by May 22nd, decommissioning will
have happened. Put aside the end of this week as a deadline, think of May
22nd, will it have happened by then?
McLAUGHLIN: Well I can't give that guarantee
which I think is the implication of your question, I can only give this
absolute commitment..
HUMPHRYS: Your view?
McLAUGHLIN: My party will work strenuously
to meet that deadline. We have committed ourselves to working towards that
deadline but of course the Good Friday Agreement commits all of the participants,
it doesn't say Sinn Fein should do this, so I think there is a difficulty
compounded for instance by the fact that it took us nineteen months out
of a two year period to set up the political institutions in the first
place. Now we have to try and do in five months what we originally gave
ourselves twenty-four months to do. But Sinn Fein remains committed to
attempting to achieve that deadline and we will work strenuously to achieve
it.
HUMPHRYS: Do you believe it will
be achieved?
McLAUGHLIN: I think we are under extreme
pressure time wise and that was obvious when we had the November review
but Sinn Fein remains committed to attempting to achieve that and we hope
the other parties are also.
HUMPHRYS: What if you had a few
extra months. What if somebody said: alright we'll take account of what's
happening. We take your point that a bit more time is needed. What if
they added on a few extra months?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well John, Sinn Fein have actually
reiterated over and over again, our conviction that we can actually achieve
decommissioning. Decommissioning in our view is an essential part of
a successful peace process, and you will notice that the IRA acknowledged
and supported that statement yesterday, so let's accept that this is a
political problem, that should be sorted out through political parties
engaging in discourse within the new and developing political structures.
Stepping outside of them, collapsing them, actually sends the message
back again that we will continue to experience a failure of politics which
gave us the conflict and the division in the first place.
HUMPHRYS: If they are collapsed,
if that does happen by the end of this week, which it will if nothing is
given by Sinn Fein, will you still, will Sinn Fein still use your influence
on the IRA. Many people say that that's a silly question because they're
one and the same, but put that aside for the moment. Would you still use
your influence on Sinn Fein to try to bring about decommissioning even
if there are no structures, none of these bodies, the assembly and the
executive in place?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I think people should
reflect on the fact that we started this work when the war was raging around
our heads, when our members were being shot dead, with collusion involving
British security forces and the Loyalists. We started then (INTERRUPTION)
we have developed ..... if necessary we'd go back onto the drawing board
and start over again. Our hands are being tied behind our backs when
people are making demands that can't be delivered in the present circumstances
or are going to take away the new political structures and give us no arguments
whatsoever to point the alternatives.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let me ask you
that question again, and I repeat that many people were being blown up
and shot dead, and many innocent people as well, which is why we're in
the mess we're in today. If the structures are collapsed, if the assembly
and everything else is suspended, what will Sinn Fein's attitude be towards
bringing influence to bear on the IRA?
MCLAUGHLIN: We will go back to the work
of building up political structures and then demonstrating through making
the primacy of politics clear to everyone, that that is how we can resolve
the outstanding problems. That's our conviction. We are wedded to that,
and we will not be deflected from that, we will not walk away from that,
we will not threaten to resign, we will deliver on the electoral mandate
that we have John, and if that is respected in the British political system
and in the British media and they understand that we represent people here
who have a commitment to peace, then we will work this out eventually,
but the people who are threatening the political process at the present
time are the pro-British Unionists and the British government, and I think
we should be very clear about that if people want clarity.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but my question
was whether you will - you say you'll still strive to get the institutions
back and working. My question was whether you would bring pressure to
bear, assuming that you're doing so at the moment as you say you had been
doing, will you continue to use your influence on the IRA to begin to disarm,
even though the institutions are not in place, even if they have been collapsed?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there's our analysis,
and I think it's a shared analysis: unless there are political structures
John, then we are wasting our time.
HUMPHRYS: So the answer's no is
it?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, sorry, it is a very
important question. We will continue to argue that we have to have space
for the politicians to think their way through this, to talk their way
through this, to negotiate their way through it, and that space would be
denied if conflict re-emerges on our streets. So Sinn Fein will continue
to use our influence, and the same influence and the same analysis that
gave us the IRA cessations tells us that we have to rebuild this. We
still need the same space and we would use that argument and we would use
that influence to the benefit of the peace process.
HUMPHRYS: So what you're saying
is that yes, you would continue to use your influence on the IRA, but you
do not believe it will be successful. Is that what you're saying?
MCLAUGHLIN: Not if the British Government
willy-nilly will would collapse international agreements and formal negotiated
commitments that they had with ourselves, but if we can rebuild that, if
the British insist on doing it and acknowledge that it can't be done outside
those formal negotiated political structures, then we can all work together,
because it becomes a common crisis. It's not a crisis for Sinn Fein alone,
and we will use our influence, we would hope others would use theirs, but
of course if Peter Mandelson were to consider the serious implications
of this action that he proposes to take next weekend, then maybe we wouldn't
have to face that crisis at all. We could go back to the existing political
structures and address the outstanding problems as sensible and adult people
should do.
HUMPHRYS: Mitchel McLaughlin, many
thanks.
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