BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 06.02.00

Interview: MITCHEL MCLAUGHLIN, Sinn Fein's Chairman.

Argues that the suspension of democratic institutions will damage the prospects for arms de-commissioning in the peace process.



JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first ... Northern Ireland. By Friday the British Government will have the power to suspend the fledgling government in Belfast. It could be the end of the assembly, the executive and all the other bodies that were set up as a result of the Good Friday Agreement. If that does NOT happen, then the Ulster Unionists will bring it down. UNLESS, that is, the IRA can be persuaded to begin the process of getting rid of its weapons. The statement it issued yesterday fell far short of what the Unionists and the government want. So where now? The chairman of Sinn Fein is Mitchel McLaughlin and he's in our Fail studio. Mr McLaughlin, what needs to be done now, to save the peace process? MITCHEL McLAUGHLIN: Well I think people should actually work the political structures to solve the outstanding problems. I think collapsing them is, you know, a totally counterproductive approach. HUMPHRYS: The IRA statement said the issue of arms needs to be dealt with and I quote "in an acceptable way, this will not be on British or Unionist terms". That means, doesn't it, no chance of anything happening this week. McLAUGHLIN: Well I think we need to be careful why we are talking about it this week, because in fact we are giving ourselves a much different timetable to deal with this and we agreed a much different timetable. The crisis is not about the decommissioning issue, with respect, it's about the fact that there is a unilateral threat to walk away from the political process and in response it appears the British government is prepared to enter into default of the Good Friday Agreement to give cover, if you like, to David Trimble, I think that's where the crisis is coming from. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but it's arisen because the IRA have not even begun the process of getting rid of weapons and we all know that the deadline of getting rid of all of them is May 22nd. That's why we have a crisis and that's why the Ulster Unionists are saying, look something has got to be done. McLAUGHLIN: Well if people want to tear up the political agreement because you know we should remember the wise words of George Mitchell, only in November last, when he said that the one guarantee and no commitments were given as IRA made clear, but the one guarantee that was available to us all is that if we do not have the political institutions there will never be decommissioning. Now not even Peter Mandelson can pretend that this legislation is going to solve that problem of decommissioning, will actually make an already difficult problem an impossible problem in my view. HUMPHRYS: So, to be quite clear about this. If the government is looking for, and this is the expression it uses: 'certainty and clarity' by the end of this week, it is looking in vain, it is not going to happen in your view? McLAUGHLIN: John, I am trying to draw attention to the course of action that Peter Mandelson has set and the very huge implications that has for ever resolving this issue. If we commit ourselves and we all have done so in the Good Friday Agreement to solving these problems through the political process, then we have to protect, we have build up and we have to develop confidence amongst each other that these political structures will work. Now we have only had them for eight weeks and you know everyone recognises that there was default even in setting them up, but to expect after eight weeks that we would have resolved those problems, some of which have been around for many, many generations, that we could solve them in eight weeks is na�ve in the extreme. We should keep our patience, we should keep our nerve and keep working through the political structures and demand of those, including Sinn Fein, we have a mandate that we deliver on all of the expectations. HUMPHRYS: But let's be quite clear. In your view, if it does not happen by the end of the week, if the British government doesn't get this clarity and certainty that it's talking about, then that's it. I mean there is not going to be that clarity and certainty. No question about that by the end of the week, in your view. McLAUGHLIN: Well I mean I think there is going to be clarity in one respect and I think the IRA have actually stated their position very clearly. The British government have acknowledged that there is no default by Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein have made it clear and I think we need clarity from Peter Mandelson, is he consciously, is he deliberately taking the government, the British government outside the terms of an international agreement because if that is the case, then could there be a more disastrous or negative message sent back in to those constituencies who actually have guns, that have control over guns and we have been trying to convince should actually surrender those guns, should consider destroying those guns in the interest of a democratic settlement? The British government, I think, are making a very, very serious mistake under the blackmail of effective withdrawal by the Unionists and that really is where the crisis is coming from, because we all understood that we needed longer to sort that this very, very difficult problem of disarmament. HUMPHRYS: Alright, so it's not going to happen by the end of the week, you make it quite clear. Now, if the Unionists could be persuaded to carry on because as you say, you use rather stronger language than this, but as you say the government is under a certain amount of pressure because of the Unionist views - I'm not debating their views for the moment. But if they could be persuaded to carry on with the Assembly and the Executive and all the rest of it, until May 22nd, which is when decommissioning is supposed to have happened, supposed to have been completed, do you believe that by May 22nd, decommissioning will have happened. Put aside the end of this week as a deadline, think of May 22nd, will it have happened by then? McLAUGHLIN: Well I can't give that guarantee which I think is the implication of your question, I can only give this absolute commitment.. HUMPHRYS: Your view? McLAUGHLIN: My party will work strenuously to meet that deadline. We have committed ourselves to working towards that deadline but of course the Good Friday Agreement commits all of the participants, it doesn't say Sinn Fein should do this, so I think there is a difficulty compounded for instance by the fact that it took us nineteen months out of a two year period to set up the political institutions in the first place. Now we have to try and do in five months what we originally gave ourselves twenty-four months to do. But Sinn Fein remains committed to attempting to achieve that deadline and we will work strenuously to achieve it. HUMPHRYS: Do you believe it will be achieved? McLAUGHLIN: I think we are under extreme pressure time wise and that was obvious when we had the November review but Sinn Fein remains committed to attempting to achieve that and we hope the other parties are also. HUMPHRYS: What if you had a few extra months. What if somebody said: alright we'll take account of what's happening. We take your point that a bit more time is needed. What if they added on a few extra months? MCLAUGHLIN: Well John, Sinn Fein have actually reiterated over and over again, our conviction that we can actually achieve decommissioning. Decommissioning in our view is an essential part of a successful peace process, and you will notice that the IRA acknowledged and supported that statement yesterday, so let's accept that this is a political problem, that should be sorted out through political parties engaging in discourse within the new and developing political structures. Stepping outside of them, collapsing them, actually sends the message back again that we will continue to experience a failure of politics which gave us the conflict and the division in the first place. HUMPHRYS: If they are collapsed, if that does happen by the end of this week, which it will if nothing is given by Sinn Fein, will you still, will Sinn Fein still use your influence on the IRA. Many people say that that's a silly question because they're one and the same, but put that aside for the moment. Would you still use your influence on Sinn Fein to try to bring about decommissioning even if there are no structures, none of these bodies, the assembly and the executive in place? MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I think people should reflect on the fact that we started this work when the war was raging around our heads, when our members were being shot dead, with collusion involving British security forces and the Loyalists. We started then (INTERRUPTION) we have developed ..... if necessary we'd go back onto the drawing board and start over again. Our hands are being tied behind our backs when people are making demands that can't be delivered in the present circumstances or are going to take away the new political structures and give us no arguments whatsoever to point the alternatives. HUMPHRYS: Well, let me ask you that question again, and I repeat that many people were being blown up and shot dead, and many innocent people as well, which is why we're in the mess we're in today. If the structures are collapsed, if the assembly and everything else is suspended, what will Sinn Fein's attitude be towards bringing influence to bear on the IRA? MCLAUGHLIN: We will go back to the work of building up political structures and then demonstrating through making the primacy of politics clear to everyone, that that is how we can resolve the outstanding problems. That's our conviction. We are wedded to that, and we will not be deflected from that, we will not walk away from that, we will not threaten to resign, we will deliver on the electoral mandate that we have John, and if that is respected in the British political system and in the British media and they understand that we represent people here who have a commitment to peace, then we will work this out eventually, but the people who are threatening the political process at the present time are the pro-British Unionists and the British government, and I think we should be very clear about that if people want clarity. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but my question was whether you will - you say you'll still strive to get the institutions back and working. My question was whether you would bring pressure to bear, assuming that you're doing so at the moment as you say you had been doing, will you continue to use your influence on the IRA to begin to disarm, even though the institutions are not in place, even if they have been collapsed? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, there's our analysis, and I think it's a shared analysis: unless there are political structures John, then we are wasting our time. HUMPHRYS: So the answer's no is it? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, sorry, it is a very important question. We will continue to argue that we have to have space for the politicians to think their way through this, to talk their way through this, to negotiate their way through it, and that space would be denied if conflict re-emerges on our streets. So Sinn Fein will continue to use our influence, and the same influence and the same analysis that gave us the IRA cessations tells us that we have to rebuild this. We still need the same space and we would use that argument and we would use that influence to the benefit of the peace process. HUMPHRYS: So what you're saying is that yes, you would continue to use your influence on the IRA, but you do not believe it will be successful. Is that what you're saying? MCLAUGHLIN: Not if the British Government willy-nilly will would collapse international agreements and formal negotiated commitments that they had with ourselves, but if we can rebuild that, if the British insist on doing it and acknowledge that it can't be done outside those formal negotiated political structures, then we can all work together, because it becomes a common crisis. It's not a crisis for Sinn Fein alone, and we will use our influence, we would hope others would use theirs, but of course if Peter Mandelson were to consider the serious implications of this action that he proposes to take next weekend, then maybe we wouldn't have to face that crisis at all. We could go back to the existing political structures and address the outstanding problems as sensible and adult people should do. HUMPHRYS: Mitchel McLaughlin, many thanks.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.