BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 06.02.00

Interview: ALUN MICHAEL, First Secretary of Wales.

Argues that he deserves to win the vote of no confidence pending in the Welsh Assembly.



JOHN HUMPHRYS: The government got a bloody nose in Wales this week. While Tony Blair was wandering around the west country telling people how good life is in rural Britain, the voters of rural Wales were pushing the Labour candidate into a humiliating fourth place in a parliamentary by-election. It could get worse this week because the First Secretary in the Welsh Assembly, Alun Michael, faces a vote of no confidence. His opponents say he is a Blairite poodle and he doesn't fight strongly enough for Wales. I talked to Mr Michael earlier this morning and I asked him if he thinks he'll survive. ALUN MICHAEL: I believe so because I think right is on our side. Plaid Cymru have put forward a challenge based on an allegation that we haven't won the money for Objective One, which of course is going to be very important in transforming the economy of Wales. Whereas in fact Labour has won Objective One, we have put the money in the budget for the coming year and I'm confident that in the spending review we will have the finances for the future years so there's no reality in the challenge that they've put forward. HUMPHRYS: Well let's just explain for people who may not know what Objective One means which is that there's a great pot of money in Brussels, one point two billion pounds over the next seven years and we can get it for Wales if we match that money from London. In other words if Gordon Brown puts in the same amount of money more or less, I know there are complications attached to it but nonetheless vaguely that's what it means. Now the fact is..... no go on.... MICHAEL: Firstly, we have to complete the negotiations with Brussels and we're well on with that. We're actually ahead of other countries and of the other regions of the United Kingdom that has Objective One status. Secondly, we have to have the money in our baseline, I know this is getting technical, and we've achieved that for the first year, for the year that starts in April and we have the spending review which will go through the next few months and end in July which is where we will decide the details of spending for the future years. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but what they're saying, putting it as simply as we possibly can is that there is all of this money on offer over the next seven years - one point two billion pounds - and you are not fighting for Wales in the sense that you are not saying 'I'm going to go to London. I'm going to bash Gordon Brown's door down and say "You balance that money so we can get all of that one point two billion dollars... pounds for Wales or you are in trouble', that is what you are not doing, that's the allegation against you. MICHAEL: Well the allegation is that I haven't achieved it. Actually as I say we have achieved it for the coming year which Plaid Cymru also don't seem to understand and secondly the process of negotiations of course takes a period of months, that's been laid down by the UK government. We've made very clear both publicly and privately, what we need in terms of money both for public expenditure and for match funding in order to be able to draw down fully the one point two billion pounds that you rightly say will be available during that period and we're absolutely confident of doing that and it's been done in a strong and a determined and a clear way but I think shouting through megaphones from one end of the M4 to the other is not the way to do it. But what Plaid Cymru has done is put a vote of confidence down this week on an artificial deadline which has nothing to do with achieving the outcomes they say they want to see and one has to question their motives and ask what they're trying to achieve. HUMPHRYS: Yes. But you see the reason they say you've not achieved it is because - yes there is a wee bit of extra money knocking around but that isn't..... no... no... let me finish the point so that people will understand what we're talking about but it is not in addition to the money that Wales would normally get. You've taken a wee bit of money out of the budget, out of the money that Wales would normally get and said 'now match that...' and they've matched that so there is a wee bit of extra money coming from Brussels but it isn't this dreadful word "additionality". It isn't in addition to the money that Wales would have got in the normal way. That's the thing that they're concerned about. MICHAEL: I think as from the beginning there have been a confusion of three technical things: Public expenditure, additionality and match funding John and we've struggled with this over months because it is technical, it is complicated but it's also very clear. What we have is the money that is necessary to satisfy the public expenditure requirements and the match funding for the coming year. The additionality element is something that's dealt with at a nation state basis and the UK government has never failed to achieve that so there isn't a problem in any of the three tests that are being set. I would put it much more simply than that. We have put in the budget for the coming year the money that is necessary to draw down the maximum that we think can be spent in the first year and indeed we've set a challenge to people, to business and local government and the voluntary sector - if you spend more than that in the first year we will achieve what's needed, there's not a problem in that regard. But that is the challenge that Plaid Cymru have set. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but that's the point isn't it - the maximum that can be spent you say which is not the same as saying the maximum that is available and the point Plaid Cymru is making is a) that there is a lot more money available if only you would fight for it and b) that by golly Wales could certainly do with that money when you look at the state the Valleys are in, you look at the state West Wales is in - by golly they could do with that extra money. MICHAEL: Yes. Neither of those things is true. The money is available to us according to a programme that is agreed with the European Union. We've put forward that profile and nobody has disputed it including Plaid Cymru. We're in the process of negotiation with the European Commission, I was there last week and met the Commissioner, Commissioner Barnier who confirmed what I've been saying all along - that the process of negotiation is satisfactory and what's needed actually in the finances John is not the profile of commitments but the profile of actual expenditure. We have not got a problem with any of this. HUMPHRYS: Well alright, let's be quite clear what you're saying then that over the next seven years you have had an undertaking from Gordon Brown, assuming you're there for seven years of course but..., that he will stump up the extra and I stress extra one point two billion pounds out of the Treasury to match the one point two billion pounds that is available from Brussels and that is absolutely clear. All you've got to do is come along and say 'look we've got the projects now, we want to do this in West Wales, that in the Valleys, the other thing somewhere else' and the money will be there, absolute guarantee - one point two billion pounds extra from Gordon Brown on the button. MICHAEL: John, in the question there are a number of misapprehensions which it would take time to unpack but let me put it this way. In order to draw down the one point two billion pounds to transform the economy of Wales we also need to draw in match funding. I am absolutely definite on the point that we have the money in the budget this year, money for future years is never dealt with long in advance, it will be dealt with in the spending review which ends in July. I am absolutely confident that that will give us the finances that we require and to jump ahead of that deadline.. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the important thing is 'in addition to' and that's what you're not telling me. You're not saying this money is in addition to, you are saying this is money out of the budget, out of the money we would normally get. MICHAEL: No, that is not the case John. I have said all along that it is absolutely clear that we need to get additional money into the Welsh budget and that is what we will be discussing through the spending review. In the case of this year you can judge me by actions because I won extra money from the Treasury, that money is in the finances this year. That is why we are able to say with such confidence that we have the money for the first twelve months from April the First, the first year of the Objective One period of Wales. The job is done on that, I have achieved that. HUMPHRYS: So given that that is the case and that's disputed, certainly the amount is disputed by Plaid Cymru but you will be challenging Mr Brown, fighting Mr Brown, you say you don't like megaphone diplomacy done the length of the M4 but nonetheless people expect you to be in there fighting for Wales and you will be fighting and saying "and we want that for next year, we want more for next year" because the amount you got this year is relatively small. MICHAEL: I promise you that nobody could possibly be more vigorous than I have been and will be in making sure that we get the best deal for Wales. But can I say the amount in this year is not relatively small, it is a large sum of money and it fits with the profile and the predictions of expenditure that come both from our experience with structure of funds previously. The experience of Objective One expenditure in areas around the UK that have had it before and the profiles of expenditure in Europe. And as I say this is in discussion with the European Commission who want to be satisfied that we will be able to do everything at the time that the money needs to be spent and it's very clear that we are succeeding in that. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at somebody else who desperately needs money and that's farmers. Obviously all farmers say we need money, but in Wales there is a disproportionately high number of hill farmers who desperately need money. I mean their plight is, I'm sure you will acknowledge, their plight is absolutely desperate. Now again there is money available for them in Europe, a very complicated business, I hope we don't go into that in detail, but again the argument is that you are not fighting to get the matching money that is needed out of the Treasury to help those hill farmers. MICHAEL: Well again, the fact is that we have been successful in getting extra money into the economy in Wales and into hill farmers this year and last year. Indeed, I was in the position of negotiating with colleagues at the Treasury and the Department of Agriculture a few weeks after becoming Secretary of State for Wales, the day before I was about to visit a hill farm in North Wales. And those were vigorous and protracted negotiations but they were successful. I think this year, to some extent farmers and the farming unions have tended to act as if money was going to become available this year, automatically because it had been in previous years and that's not the case. There were very difficult negotiations, but we've brought that money in. Now I acknowledge entirely that there is a tremendous problem facing farming, both immediately and in the longer term and that's why we've been working very closely with the farming unions, with food processors and food manufacturers on getting added value in to Wales. Things like the All Wales Livestock Co-operative, things like the three foods strategies. Things like putting money into organic farming, things like putting money into .. which of course will protect the environment of Wales as well as assuring the future of farmers. HUMPHRYS: You got absolutely hammered in the Ceredigion parliamentary by-election, you were in second place last time around, you are in fourth place this time. it couldn't have been very helpful could it that Tony Blair was wondering around places like Cornwall, very similar in some ways to West Wales, telling them that farmers, or at least rural Britain has never had it so good. That wasn't very smart was it? MICHAEL: Well the coincidence of saying things that need to be said and a particular by-election always cause difficulties. But I would point out in Ceredigion, what happened basically was that the Liberals did well, took votes off Plaid, we were squeezed.. HUMPHRYS: ..I'd say.. MICHAEL: ..in the past in by-elections we've been successful in squeezing other parties, as in the Vale of Glamorgan and in the Monmouth by-election for example. HUMPHRYS: But Ceredigion wasn't exactly a one off was it, I mean you had terrible results in the European elections, you had terrible results in the Assembly elections. I mean really Ceredigion was just a symbol of the way things are going. MICHAEL: No, I don't think it was, I think by-elections are moments in time. I think it should be remembered that in the Assembly, despite the fact that we put in a system of proportional representation which gives a much stronger representation for the other parties, we still represent twenty seven of the constituents, twenty seven out of forty of the constituencies where people are elected directly and of course, the additional numbers are meant to help the smaller parties. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but the fact is you don't have a majority there do you and that is why you are going to have one heck of a job winning your confidence vote this week - in fact - you won't win it unless one of the parties, one of the other big parties votes with you - so what are you going to do, are you going to try and do a deal with the Liberal Democrats or what? MICHAEL: Well, firstly, can I say that the arithmetic is absolutely right. If we don't have a majority it means that the other parties - if they wish to, can vote us down, that's true at any time and it's..if you like, can introduce a degree of stability. It depends whether the parties work in the way that was intended when devolution was voted on and the intention was that parties would work together for the good of Wales. Now we've sometimes seen that in the Assembly, we've particularly seen it in the committees which I think are developing and maturing in a way that over the perspective of a few years when people look out, will be seen as one of the great successes. There is less evidence of that at the moment, but that's because, as I say, Plaid Cymru have put down an artificial deadline with an artificial challenge and said come and vote with us. The challenge to the other parties is do they say we're not going to go along with this because it's not in the interests of the assembly, or do they say well we can't be seen to be outdone or place less importance on the challenge that Plaid Cymru have put ..... HUMPHRYS: All of which suggests that you are going to lose it, so what are you going to do then, are you going to stand again and say you've got to have me because I'm it and you'll make them as your party nominate you again, put you up again? MICHAEL: Well it isn't about me can I say John and I don't.... HUMPHRYS: Oh it is, I mean it is a vote of no confidence in you, specifically. MICHAEL: In the first secretary and it's a vote of confidence if you like in the leadership of the Labour Party, which, if I may say so, I think has been particularly good in the difficult first months of the Assembly..... HUMPHRYS: Well, with great respect, you would wouldn't you, but I mean they don't seem to think so, so what are you going to do, are you going, are you going to run again if they vote you down, are you going to run again, that's the question? MICHAEL: Yes, indeed I am. HUMPHRYS: You are, and again, and again. MICHAEL: Can I make the point John, that in other assemblies, whether you look at the Scottish Parliament or the situation in Northern Ireland, their present problems aside, or in other places where there's change as when there was major change in South Africa, the early months and even the early years of a new parliamentary institution are difficult and they require a great deal of effort on the part of everybody to make them stable. I'm working very hard at that, but it needs everybody to work hard. HUMPHRYS: But the effect of it is ...whether they like you or not, they are stuck with you because that's how it's going to be? MICHAEL: Well, yes that's... I lead the Labour Party and the Labour Party has the largest number of seats, albeit not a majority and I think the challenge is to the others. If you don't want the leadership of the Labour Party in the Assembly, what are you going to offer in its place, so far we had a resounding silence on that question. HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, thank you very much indeed. MICHAEL: Thank you.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.