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JOHN HUMPHRYS: The government got a bloody
nose in Wales this week. While Tony Blair was wandering around the west
country telling people how good life is in rural Britain, the voters of
rural Wales were pushing the Labour candidate into a humiliating fourth
place in a parliamentary by-election. It could get worse this week because
the First Secretary in the Welsh Assembly, Alun Michael, faces a vote of
no confidence. His opponents say he is a Blairite poodle and he doesn't
fight strongly enough for Wales. I talked to Mr Michael earlier this morning
and I asked him if he thinks he'll survive.
ALUN MICHAEL: I believe so because I think
right is on our side. Plaid Cymru have put forward a challenge based on
an allegation that we haven't won the money for Objective One, which of
course is going to be very important in transforming the economy of Wales.
Whereas in fact Labour has won Objective One, we have put the money in
the budget for the coming year and I'm confident that in the spending review
we will have the finances for the future years so there's no reality in
the challenge that they've put forward.
HUMPHRYS: Well let's just explain
for people who may not know what Objective One means which is that there's
a great pot of money in Brussels, one point two billion pounds over the
next seven years and we can get it for Wales if we match that money from
London. In other words if Gordon Brown puts in the same amount of money
more or less, I know there are complications attached to it but nonetheless
vaguely that's what it means. Now the fact is..... no go on....
MICHAEL: Firstly, we have to complete
the negotiations with Brussels and we're well on with that. We're actually
ahead of other countries and of the other regions of the United Kingdom
that has Objective One status. Secondly, we have to have the money in
our baseline, I know this is getting technical, and we've achieved that
for the first year, for the year that starts in April and we have the spending
review which will go through the next few months and end in July which
is where we will decide the details of spending for the future years.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah but what they're
saying, putting it as simply as we possibly can is that there is all of
this money on offer over the next seven years - one point two billion pounds
- and you are not fighting for Wales in the sense that you are not saying
'I'm going to go to London. I'm going to bash Gordon Brown's door down
and say "You balance that money so we can get all of that one point two
billion dollars... pounds for Wales or you are in trouble', that is what
you are not doing, that's the allegation against you.
MICHAEL: Well the allegation is
that I haven't achieved it. Actually as I say we have achieved it for
the coming year which Plaid Cymru also don't seem to understand and secondly
the process of negotiations of course takes a period of months, that's
been laid down by the UK government. We've made very clear both publicly
and privately, what we need in terms of money both for public expenditure
and for match funding in order to be able to draw down fully the one point
two billion pounds that you rightly say will be available during that period
and we're absolutely confident of doing that and it's been done in a strong
and a determined and a clear way but I think shouting through megaphones
from one end of the M4 to the other is not the way to do it. But what
Plaid Cymru has done is put a vote of confidence down this week on an artificial
deadline which has nothing to do with achieving the outcomes they say they
want to see and one has to question their motives and ask what they're
trying to achieve.
HUMPHRYS: Yes. But you see the
reason they say you've not achieved it is because - yes there is a wee
bit of extra money knocking around but that isn't..... no... no... let
me finish the point so that people will understand what we're talking about
but it is not in addition to the money that Wales would normally get.
You've taken a wee bit of money out of the budget, out of the money that
Wales would normally get and said 'now match that...' and they've matched
that so there is a wee bit of extra money coming from Brussels but it isn't
this dreadful word "additionality". It isn't in addition to the money
that Wales would have got in the normal way. That's the thing that they're
concerned about.
MICHAEL: I think as from the beginning
there have been a confusion of three technical things: Public expenditure,
additionality and match funding John and we've struggled with this over
months because it is technical, it is complicated but it's also very clear.
What we have is the money that is necessary to satisfy the public expenditure
requirements and the match funding for the coming year. The additionality
element is something that's dealt with at a nation state basis and the
UK government has never failed to achieve that so there isn't a problem
in any of the three tests that are being set. I would put it much more
simply than that. We have put in the budget for the coming year the money
that is necessary to draw down the maximum that we think can be spent in
the first year and indeed we've set a challenge to people, to business
and local government and the voluntary sector - if you spend more than
that in the first year we will achieve what's needed, there's not a problem
in that regard. But that is the challenge that Plaid Cymru have set.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah but that's the point
isn't it - the maximum that can be spent you say which is not the same
as saying the maximum that is available and the point Plaid Cymru is making
is a) that there is a lot more money available if only you would fight
for it and b) that by golly Wales could certainly do with that money when
you look at the state the Valleys are in, you look at the state West Wales
is in - by golly they could do with that extra money.
MICHAEL: Yes. Neither of those
things is true. The money is available to us according to a programme
that is agreed with the European Union. We've put forward that profile
and nobody has disputed it including Plaid Cymru. We're in the process
of negotiation with the European Commission, I was there last week and
met the Commissioner, Commissioner Barnier who confirmed what I've been
saying all along - that the process of negotiation is satisfactory and
what's needed actually in the finances John is not the profile of commitments
but the profile of actual expenditure. We have not got a problem with
any of this.
HUMPHRYS: Well alright, let's be
quite clear what you're saying then that over the next seven years you
have had an undertaking from Gordon Brown, assuming you're there for seven
years of course but..., that he will stump up the extra and I stress extra
one point two billion pounds out of the Treasury to match the one point
two billion pounds that is available from Brussels and that is absolutely
clear. All you've got to do is come along and say 'look we've got the
projects now, we want to do this in West Wales, that in the Valleys, the
other thing somewhere else' and the money will be there, absolute guarantee
- one point two billion pounds extra from Gordon Brown on the button.
MICHAEL: John, in the question
there are a number of misapprehensions which it would take time to unpack
but let me put it this way. In order to draw down the one point two billion
pounds to transform the economy of Wales we also need to draw in match
funding. I am absolutely definite on the point that we have the money
in the budget this year, money for future years is never dealt with long
in advance, it will be dealt with in the spending review which ends in
July. I am absolutely confident that that will give us the finances that
we require and to jump ahead of that deadline..
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but I'm sorry to
interrupt you, but the important thing is 'in addition to' and that's what
you're not telling me. You're not saying this money is in addition to,
you are saying this is money out of the budget, out of the money we would
normally get.
MICHAEL: No, that is not the case
John. I have said all along that it is absolutely clear that we need to
get additional money into the Welsh budget and that is what we will be
discussing through the spending review. In the case of this year you can
judge me by actions because I won extra money from the Treasury, that money
is in the finances this year. That is why we are able to say with such
confidence that we have the money for the first twelve months from April
the First, the first year of the Objective One period of Wales. The job
is done on that, I have achieved that.
HUMPHRYS: So given that that is
the case and that's disputed, certainly the amount is disputed by Plaid
Cymru but you will be challenging Mr Brown, fighting Mr Brown, you say
you don't like megaphone diplomacy done the length of the M4 but nonetheless
people expect you to be in there fighting for Wales and you will be fighting
and saying "and we want that for next year, we want more for next year"
because the amount you got this year is relatively small.
MICHAEL: I promise you that nobody
could possibly be more vigorous than I have been and will be in making
sure that we get the best deal for Wales. But can I say the amount in this
year is not relatively small, it is a large sum of money and it fits with
the profile and the predictions of expenditure that come both from our
experience with structure of funds previously. The experience of Objective
One expenditure in areas around the UK that have had it before and the
profiles of expenditure in Europe. And as I say this is in discussion with
the European Commission who want to be satisfied that we will be able to
do everything at the time that the money needs to be spent and it's very
clear that we are succeeding in that.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at somebody
else who desperately needs money and that's farmers. Obviously all farmers
say we need money, but in Wales there is a disproportionately high number
of hill farmers who desperately need money. I mean their plight is, I'm
sure you will acknowledge, their plight is absolutely desperate. Now again
there is money available for them in Europe, a very complicated business,
I hope we don't go into that in detail, but again the argument is that
you are not fighting to get the matching money that is needed out of the
Treasury to help those hill farmers.
MICHAEL: Well again, the fact is
that we have been successful in getting extra money into the economy in
Wales and into hill farmers this year and last year. Indeed, I was in the
position of negotiating with colleagues at the Treasury and the Department
of Agriculture a few weeks after becoming Secretary of State for Wales,
the day before I was about to visit a hill farm in North Wales. And those
were vigorous and protracted negotiations but they were successful. I think
this year, to some extent farmers and the farming unions have tended to
act as if money was going to become available this year, automatically
because it had been in previous years and that's not the case. There were
very difficult negotiations, but we've brought that money in. Now I acknowledge
entirely that there is a tremendous problem facing farming, both immediately
and in the longer term and that's why we've been working very closely with
the farming unions, with food processors and food manufacturers on getting
added value in to Wales. Things like the All Wales Livestock Co-operative,
things like the three foods strategies. Things like putting money into
organic farming, things like putting money into .. which of course will
protect the environment of Wales as well as assuring the future of farmers.
HUMPHRYS: You got absolutely hammered
in the Ceredigion parliamentary by-election, you were in second place
last time around, you are in fourth place this time. it couldn't have been
very helpful could it that Tony Blair was wondering around places like
Cornwall, very similar in some ways to West Wales, telling them that farmers,
or at least rural Britain has never had it so good. That wasn't very smart
was it?
MICHAEL: Well the coincidence of
saying things that need to be said and a particular by-election always
cause difficulties. But I would point out in Ceredigion, what happened
basically was that the Liberals did well, took votes off Plaid, we were
squeezed..
HUMPHRYS: ..I'd say..
MICHAEL: ..in the past in by-elections
we've been successful in squeezing other parties, as in the Vale of Glamorgan
and in the Monmouth by-election for example.
HUMPHRYS: But Ceredigion wasn't
exactly a one off was it, I mean you had terrible results in the European
elections, you had terrible results in the Assembly elections. I mean really
Ceredigion was just a symbol of the way things are going.
MICHAEL: No, I don't think it was,
I think by-elections are moments in time. I think it should be remembered
that in the Assembly, despite the fact that we put in a system of proportional
representation which gives a much stronger representation for the other
parties, we still represent twenty seven of the constituents, twenty seven
out of forty of the constituencies where people are elected directly and
of course, the additional numbers are meant to help the smaller parties.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but the fact is
you don't have a majority there do you and that is why you are going to
have one heck of a job winning your confidence vote this week - in fact
- you won't win it unless one of the parties, one of the other big parties
votes with you - so what are you going to do, are you going to try and
do a deal with the Liberal Democrats or what?
MICHAEL: Well, firstly, can I say
that the arithmetic is absolutely right. If we don't have a majority it
means that the other parties - if they wish to, can vote us down, that's
true at any time and it's..if you like, can introduce a degree of stability.
It depends whether the parties work in the way that was intended when
devolution was voted on and the intention was that parties would work together
for the good of Wales. Now we've sometimes seen that in the Assembly,
we've particularly seen it in the committees which I think are developing
and maturing in a way that over the perspective of a few years when people
look out, will be seen as one of the great successes. There is less evidence
of that at the moment, but that's because, as I say, Plaid Cymru have put
down an artificial deadline with an artificial challenge and said come
and vote with us. The challenge to the other parties is do they say we're
not going to go along with this because it's not in the interests of the
assembly, or do they say well we can't be seen to be outdone or place less
importance on the challenge that Plaid Cymru have put .....
HUMPHRYS: All of which suggests
that you are going to lose it, so what are you going to do then, are you
going to stand again and say you've got to have me because I'm it and you'll
make them as your party nominate you again, put you up again?
MICHAEL: Well it isn't about me
can I say John and I don't....
HUMPHRYS: Oh it is, I mean it is
a vote of no confidence in you, specifically.
MICHAEL: In the first secretary
and it's a vote of confidence if you like in the leadership of the Labour
Party, which, if I may say so, I think has been particularly good in the
difficult first months of the Assembly.....
HUMPHRYS: Well, with great respect,
you would wouldn't you, but I mean they don't seem to think so, so what
are you going to do, are you going, are you going to run again if they
vote you down, are you going to run again, that's the question?
MICHAEL: Yes, indeed I am.
HUMPHRYS: You are, and again, and again.
MICHAEL: Can I make the point
John, that in other assemblies, whether you look at the Scottish Parliament
or the situation in Northern Ireland, their present problems aside, or
in other places where there's change as when there was major change in
South Africa, the early months and even the early years of a new parliamentary
institution are difficult and they require a great deal of effort on the
part of everybody to make them stable. I'm working very hard at that, but
it needs everybody to work hard.
HUMPHRYS: But the effect of it
is ...whether they like you or not, they are stuck with you because that's
how it's going to be?
MICHAEL: Well, yes that's... I
lead the Labour Party and the Labour Party has the largest number of seats,
albeit not a majority and I think the challenge is to the others. If you
don't want the leadership of the Labour Party in the Assembly, what are
you going to offer in its place, so far we had a resounding silence on
that question.
HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, thank you
very much indeed.
MICHAEL: Thank you.
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