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JOHN HUMPHRYS: John Prescott, you've always
been passionate about open debate and democracy in the party. I remember
a great speech you made for OMOV - one member, one vote, it swung it at
the Labour Party conference in Brighton in '93/94. Do you understand the
concerns of people like Tom Sawyer and Ken Jackson, who are great loyalists
themselves obviously, been in the party a very long time. Do you share
a bit of their worry?
JOHN PRESCOTT: Yes, I do. I think I warned
Tom Sawyer about some of these things, if you don't keep a close contact.
I coined the phrase that the politics of organisation is equally as important
as the politics of ideas and it's important those two things are brought
together, especially when you are in government, because it's more difficult
then than when we are in Opposition, because we can all say all sorts of
things. And when I was listening to the programme there and I had to think
to myself, look at the bitter rows that went on in previous Labour Governments,
nothing like today but we still must make sure that if you don't keep contact
with your activists and your Labour Party members, you will reap the kind
of problems the Tories had, that they begin to walk away from you, and
then government doesn't have any support in the country and you begin
to lose government as well. So I think we are all conscious and aware of
that, but just a couple of qualifications.
I notice you picked out
Sheffield and I notice you picked out Liverpool, now whatever has happened
about activists in Liverpool, they have been pretty well pretty well prevalent
there for an awful long time, well before Tony Blair came and the vote
of Labour's vote went down and down and down. So, it's something continued
and not associated directly with Tony Blair. Sheffield, now gone to Liberal,
it should never have happened, I went there a number of times during the
elections and there to that extent, again the problems of organisation
go back further than actually this period of government and Tony Blair.
But it is right, we need to make sure we get closer contact and I would
say that we have in the partnership in power we have more people involved
now in developing ideas in the party and the party 21st Century that was
mentioned there is how we develop the reorganisation of the party structure
with the agreement of the activists but the final point is, as was noticed
there, we have doubled our membership, but a different kind of membership
has come as well, who are demanding different things, who reflect a kind
of different demand on the party structure and we need to bring them together.
HUMPHRYS: You've lost a lot of
members in the past couple of years, I want to come to that in a minute
if I can...
PRESCOTT: Twelve thousand a year
- something like a thousand a month that go on natural wastage. Every
party faces that, but we've had some decline..
HUMPHRYS: Fifteen per cent over
two years, that's a lot..
PRESCOTT: No, no, it's twelve thousand
a year but what we have to do is make that up in order to just keep it
level. But I am not arguing that we don't need to be doing more. I was
involved in campaigning that led to the doubling of our party membership..
HUMPHRYS: What's your membership
today..
PRESCOTT: About three hundred and
ninety odd thousand. The peak was something like four hundred and five.
Now that's still the largest political party membership...
HUMPHRYS: It's on a downward curve
that's the point.
PRESCOTT: I want it always to be
up but don't forget under Tony Blair and myself the membership doubled
in two years, that was quite considerable.
HUMPHRYS: Wasn't that the '97 figure
that you've just given me.
PRESCOTT: Which one, the membership?
..No it's the latest figures that we have on membership and as you know
under our rules..
HUMPHRYS: You don't update it..
PRESCOTT: No, we do. You allow
a certain period of time before they come up, we remind them, paying membership
and that's another thing that changed. Years ago they used to go collecting
the membership, now you have to remind them about the payment, the standing
orders, it's a different structure altogether.
HUMPHRYS: Okay. Tom Sawyer's worry,
Lord Sawyer's worry is - he said it's not working - he used a very blunt
phrase there. He said it's not working because people feel they don't have
a say, that's their concern.
PRESCOTT: Well let's just take
that one John. I mean, and Tom Sawyer was the General Secretary when he
brought some of this.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed, he was responsible
for New Labour in all sorts of ways.
PRESCOTT: Absolutely. He went through
the process of listening. This Saturday I was in Hull, also on Friday night
I was in Whitely Bay. There, there were policy reform groups where we discussed
the policy in local groups and recruit membership, that then goes to the
regional policies, it goes to our national policy forum. There are more
members involved in developing our policy now, than was ever the history
through the resolutions.
HUMPHRYS: He's still worried about
it.
PRESCOTT: Fine, we've got to develop
on it and build on it, but you know when I hear Mark Seddon talking about
the wonderful system we had before, where you used to meet at the conference
and you sent resolutions and they consolidate, what was the committee called,'The
Compositing Committee' used to produce resolutions for us that meant everything
to everyone, they could all vote for it and then we had difficulties when
governments came to implementing it.
HUMPHRYS: But it is odd isn't it
that if things are working the way you describe then, that the membership
seems not to be aware of it. I mean we heard some activists there, you
know 'they frequently just ignore us' was one of the comments. And it is
important isn't it?.
PRESCOTT: No, it certainly is.
But it's not only not knowing what's going on in the party, most of them
don't know what's gone on in government, largely because we are not getting
our message out to many of our own people. Now that raises the question
what is our constituencies for. Before they used to be forums to argue
the ideas and pass the resolutions and prepare for council and national
elections. We do think campaigning now, particularly in government is a
critical part. So what we have embarked upon with the constituencies, through
this 21st Century is to say how can we deliver better, can we raise more
money, more money now comes from individual membership in the Labour Party,
it's not simply a trade union financial handout and they are bringing changes.
We do canvassing by telephone now instead of just knocking on the door.
People are changing in the way that they approach politics and we have
to adjust a party structure which was devised for us by Keir Hardie and
I think in a hundred years we can sit down and say is it still the best.
HUMPHRYS: But Seyd says, Professor
Seyd says it's not just a question of the global membership, it's a question
of how active they are and it used to be that half the members were active,
now it's only a third of the members are active.
PRESCOTT: I think that's a very
important point again and I've read most of their reports and they're very
valuable contributions to understanding the activists and membership in
our party. But at the end of the day, some activists are active in the
GMC and it finishes there, some work seven days a week and I know when
we brought the new membership in there was a lot of people saying, they
don't do seven days a week, they are not committed like us Labour people,
well it's changed a bit. Some people will give a day at the election, some
people will give money, some will attend the social functions, some will
come to the GMCs. You know the time when you really get a full GMC in
the Labour when you know there's a damn big row, in the way a lot of people
like that among the activists and sometimes it's very necessary. But let's
marry those two different parts of our party that are coming together.
The new membership that is coming along with the old activists who got
used to a way. We need both of them and that's what we're trying to do.
HUMPHRYS: The difficulty is that
if they think there is this kind of control freakery that is the current
mantra everybody talks about. You see, interestingly, Tom Sawyer talked
about it there as well didn't he: 'there is a widely held perception' he
said 'that Blair went beyond what he should have done, he got involved
in the mechanism for selecting party leaders, leaders in Wales and in London.
That's the sort of thing that damages the party leader.' It also sends
completely the wrong signal to the activist, doesn't it.
PRESCOTT: It is a difficulty and
I think I agree with Tom, there is certainly that perception there and
a great deal of publicity about it, though I can't help but think
about the Ken Livingstone affair at the moment. There's Tony intervened
and said, well, I think as leader of the party I must say I don't think
Ken is the best candidate because he won't do what he says. Now I am bound
to say the events at the moment perhaps suggest he might be right, I don't
know, but he claimed....
HUMPHRYS: ....perhaps this wouldn't
have happened if he hadn't got involved in the way he did....
PRESCOTT: ...well, perhaps it might
not, but he is the leader and he said I have a responsibility at least
to argue by case and that he chose to do....
HUMPHRYS: .....but don't get involved
in the mechanics was what Tom Sawyer said.
PRESCOTT: ....I think that's what
Tom was saying there, yes, and I think that does create great problems,
though as a leader, he is the leader of the party as well as he is the
Prime Minister. And I think a lot of people have learnt a lot of lessons
hopefully and will begin to make the kind of changes that are necessary.
HUMPHRYS: What's the biggest lesson
then?
PRESCOTT: That you can't win, that
you can't hold this party together without keeping your activists and full
membership participation. Most of the things under the Blair administration,
particularly as the leader of the party, has brought radical changes and
I think he can look back and say I have made those changes, now let's get
on with delivering.
HUMPHRYS: Because if you don't
do that then you do have difficulty getting the vote out and it damages
at the election, doesn't it?
PRESCOTT: Absolutely, I think if
your party loses heart, I have always been very strong about that, at the
end of the day the party must have heart to want to go out and fight, but
I would say this, isn't it curious, this is the first Labour government
that has produced over eighty per cent of its manifesto in less than three
years. Now normally that used to be the cry, what about the manifesto,
you are not carrying it out. Dennis Healey's reminded the difficult economic
circumstances he faced. We have economic stability, we have produced eighty
per cent of our manifesto. Any party and any government should be able
to say to its party, go out and tell them, there's more people in work,
more going into hospitals and health, Keir Hardie had that manifesto.
Our card said exactly the same. I bring out my card. The same principles,
the same commitments, we are delivering. So we can ask our activists to
support that.
HUMPHRYS: You weren't around when
Keir Hardie was, I'll give you that. But you've been around, you've been
around when Tony Benn obviously - he
sat on my knee, or something, or he sat on his knee probably. But you've
been around a very long time. A lot of people see you as the conscience
of the old Labour Party, whether you use capital O or capital L or whatever
you like. And there have been huge numbers of changes in the past few
years. Is it your view that now perhaps is the time to put the revolution
on hold. A period of consolidation if you like.
PRESCOTT: I think it is a period
of consolidation but change always keeps going. Tony Blair constantly
tell us, don't let's be complacent, you can't just do one and finish and
hope it lasts there, but when Tom says we've gone through such radical
changes over this period of time. Let us consolidate but don't let us
ignore the fact that you have to change and keep up with the circumstances
and it's a balance and at the end of the day, our party members decide
it at conference. That is what democracy is about. We have to make these
proposals. And I think all of us are looking forward now to the coming
election when we've had a good record, a good delivery and we can get on
with the job.
The other thing, to be
honest I think that's undermined us a bit, this is somewhat controversial
I suppose, is that when we had this whole
PR in elections, where the party have seen the strength of the parties
go down, whether it's in Scotland or Wales and its representation or the
European elections and I think to that extent, they think, well, we've
seen PR, perhaps we have had enough of it and let's learn the lessons of
it.
HUMPHRYS: And how much longer are
you going to be around?
PRESCOTT: A few more years yet!
- it's better than working.
HUMPHRYS: You don't think...you've
had quite a rough time over the last couple of years..a bit of briefing
against you and all that. You don't sometimes think you know, people think,
well the old Prescott, he's part of the past and not the future.
PRESCOTT: Well, they can make that
decision, that's up to them. I have always believed in change. I have
always played a major part in it. But I am very strong about traditional
values in the modern setting. I think that's what the Labour Party's about.
Keir Hardie could still be proud to be in this member today producing
for the less fortunate in the society, a fair society, one on social justice.
I've always believed in that and that's what we're doing.
HUMPHRYS: John Prescott, thank
you very much indeed.
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