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JOHN HUMPHRYS: The devolved government
in Scotland is nearly a year old and Labour's in some difficulty. It's
had more than its share of troubles... what with so many political advisers
being forced to resign, scandals over lobbying members of the government
and attacks from Scottish MPs at Westminster on their own first minister,
Donald Dewar and so on. They have been resisting the attempt to impose
a new Labour agenda, dreamed up in London on the people of Scotland.
Well, Mr Dewar personally got a standing ovation from party members at
their conference in Scotland yesterday, but that hardly means his problems
are over. Earlier this morning I asked him how he is going to persuade
Scottish politicians to love New Labour.
DONALD DEWAR MP: I have to say to you it was the
most united and happy conference that I have attended in my very long career
as a Labour politician. It's been a smashing weekend and I don't think
that the tales about doubts and diversions or reservations about the leadership
were borne out in any way at all. You've got to look at the record and
if you've got the lowest unemployment rate in Scotland for twenty-four
years, if you've got ninety-seven per cent of eligible four year olds in
nursery accommodation. If you've got the biggest building programme the
National Health Service has ever seen, if you have got long term youth
unemployment down by seventy per cent and so on right through a whole gamut
of fundamentally important policy issues then I think you can see why the
party is in good heart and confident in the longer run these are the issues
that will come through.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem is you
have to keep trying to persuade your core supporters, the heartlands and
all the rest of it that that is the case. I mean we've seen you telling
them that, we've seen Robin Cook today telling them that. We've seen Tony
Blair himself trying to persuade them that New Labour is good for you.
If they believed it already, perhaps you wouldn't have to do that much
persuading.
DEWAR: I think there is a phenomena
in British politics called 'mid-term blues'. You will remember John, perhaps
unfair to say you remember personally, but you remember '45/'51 and the
government didn't lose a single by-election in the whole six years. Now
you have governments in western democracies and certainly this country
that have great difficulty mid-term. I think we are in good nick, I think
we are in good heart and we are fighting very hard and I believe that the
social justice agenda, the biggest increase in child benefit, the social
inclusion partnerships, the attack on thermal efficiency in the homes,
community ownership. It's a really exciting agenda and I think when people
come to pass judgement on the record of the Scottish administration it
will be a very positive one.
HUMPHRYS: That depends how long
the mid-term blues last doesn't it.
DEWAR: Well mid-term blues, the
name is hint. I think mid term blues tend to be mid-term.
HUMPHRYS: Perhaps all it means
is that it strikes you in mid-term but it may stay with you. You see we
had Peter Hain this morning talking about all this sort of thing in The
Observer. I don't know whether you were able to see that in Scotland, but
he said the problem - not that you don't receive The Observer but whether
you've had time to read it yet - 'the problem isn't just confined to our
heartlands' he said 'there is a core vote, traditional solid Labour support
in every constituency in the land, in the marginal seats. We need that
core vote to turn out to win these seats. We can't rely on the New Labour
vote.'
He was very clear about that.
DEWAR: Let me say to you that I
think the outstanding feature in Scotland is that core votes, heartland
votes become somewhat misleading terms because the Labour Party has attracted
support right across the whole range of communities. I mean I live in a
part of West Glasgow, a fairly prosperous part of West Glasgow, we have
the first Labour councillor we have ever had in history and that is typical.
We now....no-one.....it used to be in the old days, the arguments back
in the eighties that you had to appeal only to the old heartland vote because
the implication was that no other part of the community would be attracted
by Labour. That's no longer the case and our strength, certainly in Scotland,
is that we are in a very real sense a national party and I am sure that
that is going to come through.
HUMPHRYS: But across the country,
Peter Hain makes the point, and I quote him again 'lost the knack of
communicating with The Mirror readership' as opposed to The Mail readership
you'll notice. 'Lost the knack of communicating with The Mirror readership.
We've got to rediscover it' he said.
DEWAR: Well I don't know what that
means but what do think is..
HUMPHRYS: Well you've got a fair
idea - old Labour versus new again.
DEWAR: What I do know is that we
have a unity of purpose about the changes we want to bring into society,
the unlocking of opportunity and if you look at the things that are important
to my administration. I mean it's not just rhetorical slogans, started
perhaps with a promise, five thousand classroom assistants for example
over the terms of this Parliament. Fifteen hundred of them are in place.
If you look at our promises on numeracy and literacy, the money has been
spent and is having an impact and as I say, those who believe that the
economy rather matters, we have the best economic story certainly in Scotland.
We out-perform the United Kingdom in the latest four quarterly figures,
both in the financial services sector growth and in manufacturing growth.
Now these are really big positives and we have the highest number of people
in work in Scotland we've had since 1966. Now that's not a reason for being
apologetic about this administration.
HUMPHRYS: No, no and indeed, and
so long as that is what people focus on maybe that's okay. But the problem
is and it is a problem and perhaps this is what Peter Hain is getting at,
is that the perception is that you are tangled up in a lot of issues that
aren't at the top of the agenda. Apart from the issues that you have just
talked about that clearly matter to people, there are so many things at
the top of the agenda for you that appear to be at the top of the agenda
for you in Scotland that don't get to the heart of what they worry about.
I'm thinking about Section 28 for instance where you seemed to totally
misunder....to under-estimate the level of opposition to what you wanted
to do there. These are the sort of things that you may care about, New
Labour may care about, but a lot of core supporters haven't got them as
high as you have.
DEWAR: I think on Section 28 if
people are prepared to debate the issues responsibly then I think the case
that we are putting forward is a very very strong one...
HUMPHRYS: ...but they're saying
it doesn't matter to us that much, you see, that's the point...
DEWAR: ..well we have made an announcement,
the course of history ran on, we had a consultation period. We got very
strong support for a repeal of that particular section. On the basis that
it is not a safeguard for children in school. It is interesting, one of
the really powerful arguments that Tony Blair deployed the other day, was
that it hasn't applied to English schools for six years and therefore the
suggestion that in Scotland we will be in some way irresponsible or that
pornography will appear in the schools, that children will be involved
in homosexual role playing, it hasn't happened in England, why should it
happen in Scotland? It's not. The safeguard is the professionalism of
teachers, the safeguard is the way in which parents are now involved and
have consultation rights, have the right to withdraw children, these are
the safeguards and Section 28 is discriminatory. If it isn't a safeguard
it should clearly go and if we can concentrate on that we will win this
argument. It's not..
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but again, if the
argument is worth winning from the point of view of your core supporters.
It may be important but it isn't, and this is the point I'm making over
and over again, it isn't at the top of their agenda just as, for instance,
Freedom of Information is not at the top of the agenda - again, terribly
important of course in the long run and a lot of people are concerned about
it but it isn't up there with the best of them as far as your core supporters
are concerned and they're saying - 'Why do we have to mess about with these
things at the moment, we've got other things to worry about?'
DEWAR: I think on Section 28 what
happened was that someone came in with a spectacular promise of vast funding
of a particular campaign and it became a great press issue. Now I mean
I believe very strongly in the freedom of the press, I'm entitled however
to say that they also have to be responsible. That is an issue but there
are many other, as you say, important issues in Scottish politics that
I would want to see them pursuing even if they're pursuing them in terms
of that I and my colleagues have got it all wrong. But I don't adopt your
view that we should be politicians who won't touch something with a barge
pole in case it attracts too much attention in the press......
HUMPHRYS: No...no...no...no...
that's not the point I'm making at all...
DEWAR: You've got to do something
because it's right on the basis of the arguments in your view.
HUMPHRYS: You've got to address
those things that your.. at least I'm quoting other people in your party
- those things, the core supporters, the grass roots, whatever you want
to call them are most concerned about and what they're saying to you is
things like Section 28...of course it may very well be important. Things
like Freedom of Information, very important but those in a sense are Westminster
issues in the sense that they...
DEWAR: No....no....no.....
HUMPHRYS: ...in the sense that
Westminster should make the running. Why? These aren't specific Scottish
issues, so why should the Scottish parliament be dealing with them?
DEWAR: Two things I would say to
you John: I've been trying in the first part of this interview to tell
you about the way we've tackled the central issues...
HUMPHRYS: Indeed and I've listened
to that - yeah...
DEWAR: And we will continue to
do that and I think as
the script unwinds it will become clearer and clearer that we are doing
a good job and reflecting very directly in terms of the social justice
agenda what Scotland wants to hear. Secondly on Freedom of Information
it's not a big issue in Scotland but it's an important issue and we will
get it right and can I say to you that we do intend to have an act through
the Scottish parliament, it won't be just a carbon copy of what Jack Straw
is doing in England but it will certainly and properly take account of
the fact that we are part of the United Kingdom, that information and news
and periodicals and newspapers circulate throughout the kingdom and therefore
it's got to be compatible with. We work with Westminster. Holyrood and
Westminster work together and that's why, for example, the enormously effective
campaign with increase in child benefit, with the Working Families Tax
Credit attacking the poverty tax...the poverty trap which Gordon Brown
has mounted is also very important to us. It complements our policies
on thermal efficiency in the homes, our policy on social inclusion partnership
money....
HUMPHRYS: You make that point -
indeed, but there are other things like, and we don't have time to discuss
this at any great length for obvious reasons, I'm merely using it as an
illustration of the point I've been making. PR, proportional representation,
a constitutional issue which many people are saying 'we don't need to be
bothering ourselves with at this stage'. One of your most senior MEPs,
David Martin says he's seriously concerned about it. Why deal with that
at the moment? It isn't an issue you need to bother about.
DEWAR: Well, what we have done
is very bravely and as a matter of principle, changed the voting system
in the Scottish parliament. I can tell you that if you believe public
opinion matters then the opinion polls suggest an overwhelming majority
in support of what we've done. Sure it's meant that we've had a partnership
administration with the Liberal Democrats. We've had to learn new skills,
we've got to learn ways of working together but we've delivered and it's
gone well and I would defend it as right in principle given the scale and
the context of Scottish politics and I do find it a little...
HUMPHRYS: ..sorry just on that,
defend the extension of it, you're saying?..just to be clear about what
you're saying, defend the extension of it...
DEWAR: I was talking about what
we have done. I mean we've got, of course as you will know, the Curly
Committee looking at various ways of trying to revive and give added zest
to local democracy and the electoral systems is one of them. But what
I find astonishing John and I really do say this to you as someone who
has sat at the other side of a microphone for many years with you is I
don't believe for a moment that you believe that these matters are unimportant
and certainly the changes we made in the electoral system in Scotland in
the Scottish context did have very very far reaching consequences but I
think it's right that the Scottish parliament should reflect more accurately
the pattern of voting in the country and I stand on that.
HUMPHRYS: Well, yeah, the point
I have been making to you is that you should reflect more accurately the
concerns of many of your colleagues who are concerned.
DEWAR: No.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you know we've
heard people saying (both speaking at once) Let me just quote you Ian
Davidson whom you will know very well of course, a Scottish Labour MP.
'Scottish ministers...' he said, 'are giving Labour a bad image.' Now
for a number of different reasons he reaches that conclusion. He says
you, yourself, you cannot control your own ministers. They're briefing
against each other. He says it's 'reminiscent of the dying days of John
Major....' I mean he has a point hasn't he?
DEWAR: I will give full weight
to Ian Davidson's views, but can I tell you that I'm not just interested
in trying to keep the core activists happy. The core activists don't want
that. What they want is the right policies for the country and getting
that reflected in the next General Election at Westminster and the Holyrood...
HUMPHRYS: I'm sure that's the message
being sent out at Westminster..
DEWAR: Just let me say to you....
HUMPHRYS: .. by Tony Blair and
his people.
DEWAR: John, if you had been -
if you had been at the conference this weekend, if you had seen the reception
for Tony Blair, frankly if you had seen the unity of purpose, if you had
seen the enthusiasm - actually it may be a real anorak's point, but this
was the first conference in Labour where we weren't just taking an odd
collection of random motions and cobbling together as corporate composites
and calling them policy. We had working parties, we had ministers up to
answer questions in sessions and colleagues were enjoying it, the conference
was enjoying it, we were growing up as a serious political party.
HUMPHRYS: So when George Galloway,
another of your supporters, although not necessarily your personal supporter,
when he says that you should stand aside for a younger man or a different
man, your message to him is pretty simple?
DEWAR: Garn!. Look - George -
I didn't see George this weekend at the Scottish Labour Party Conference.
He's entitled to his point of view. Come on. Now, we've been talking
or trying to talk about the success of the economic campaign. We've been
trying to talk about how we'd conquer poverty in our society. How we'd
stop a situation in which children in almost every constituency at some
part of the constituency don't get chances because of the pressures of
circumstances of poverty and unemployment. And you are saying to me there
is one Labour MP somewhere who has a rather individual point of view.
Well, fine, he's entitled to it, but that's not what I'm in politics to
worry about.
HUMPHRYS: Just for the benefit
of our English-speaking listeners you'd better translate that message that
you want delivered to them.
DEWAR: Ha. Ha, I think I'll leave
it, I'll leave it as it is.
HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar, many thanks.
HUMPHRYS: Do let us know if you
have any better explanation than that.
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