BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 19.03.00

Film: TORIES VT William Hague wants the British to be able to opt out of future European legislation but some people in his Party want to go further. They say too much power has already been handed over to Brussels and they want it back.



HUMPHRYS: William Hague is taking a tough line on Britain's relationship with Europe. He wants us to draw a line in the sand, to say there will be no more powers handed over to Brussels. Some of his party are worried about what that will do to our position in the European Union. But, and here's his real problem, others want him to go even further. They say too much power has been handed over already and they want it back. Jonathan Beale has been looking at how the battle might end. JONATHAN BEALE: Brussels is getting ready to welcome new countries to the European Union. But before they can take their places at the table, changes will have to be made. Some Conservatives accept that means more power being handed over to Brussels. Others want to take power back. The Tory Leadership is trying to keep both sides happy to avoid splits over Europe being on display again. ROGER HELMER MEP: We want to be clear that there are areas of policy currently which are EU competencies that in future under a Conservative government should be brought back as clearly British national competencies. LORD BRITTEN: Well a lot of people talk about a lot of nonsense and you can't stop them talking about it, but it doesn't mean its going to happen. BEALE: William Hague wants a more flexible Europe before it welcomes new member states. He wants Britain to have the right to reject any further Brussels interference. His is a vision of being able to pick and choose any future EU legislation. It's Europe a la carte: There are currently fifteen countries in the Union, but eastern Europe is queuing to join. Conservatives are worried that in a larger EU Britain's right to veto legislation could be diminished. The Tories fear it would leave Britain unable to prevent more powers of the national parliament being handed over to Brussels. The transfer has already started. In previous treaties Brussels has been given powers to create a SINGLE MARKET, a SINGLE CURRENCY and a SOCIAL CHAPTER to protect workers' rights. The Commission is now ready to look at the next course: Beefing up the European Foreign and Security policy and EU Justice and Immigration controls It could also press for a European Charter of Rights. Eventually the Commission would like to get round to creating a European Army and to gain some influence over Taxation. The Hague menu would add flexibility. FRANCIS MAUDE: We take the view that the European Union's reached a fork in the road - with enlargement much overdue it's got to do one of two things. It will either have to intensify the integration towards full political union or it's got to go down the route of flexibility, of having a European Union where the one size fits all dogma, of uniformity that's been really the dominant theory of the European Union since its inception. We recognise that that's out of date. A modern Europe in a modern world needs to be more flexible. BEALE: The party's pro- Europeans are worried. Candidate countries could be left in the cold if there isn't a new treaty. But William Hague says a Tory Government would be willing to hold up the negotiations if he didn't get what he wanted: BRITTAN: It would be a tragedy for the Conservative party as the champion of enlargement, and greatly respected and admired in east and central Europe were to lose all that by seeming to stand in the way of the one change which would certainly be a modest one which is needed to achieve enlargement, which everybody agrees is needed. BEALE: But the Conservatives want Britain to set its own agenda. It, and any other country could refuse to sign up to any future EU legislation. Countries such as Germany France, Holland Belgium and Luxembourg could still pursue further integration. But they couldn't force Britain to join their party. BRITTAN: It would mean that there was a forward looking group and we were left behind and we would have much less influence. Conservatives, some Conservatives argue in favour of it because they think it's a way of picking and choosing and cherry picking and doing what we want and not doing what we don't want. Well, that can't work in the European Union and it wouldn't be agreed. BEALE: Some Tory Euro- sceptics wouldn't swallow it either. They fear a two tier Europe would only speed up integration for some. Even if Britain opted out at the start - as with the social chapter - it could always get pulled in later. BILL CASH: That means a hard core two tier Europe of the kind that was ruled out by the Conservative Party when in power in 1996. Now I happen to be dead against the idea of a hard core two tier Europe because actually it is conceding the principle of a federal Europe BEALE: But the policy may brighten up Tory fortunes back home by appealing to an electorate that's showing sings of disillusionment with the EU. In last May's Euro elections the slogan "In Europe, not run by Europe" struck a chord - at least with some of those who bothered to vote. The party is being urged to go further still. Many Tories believe there's already been too much influence from Europe. They want to turn back the clock and renegotiate past EU rules and regulations which they say have been bad for Britain. In essence they want a menu that's decided by Westminster not Brussels. Tory Euro sceptics have already prepared a list of ingredients they want taken out of the EU's hands. The leadership itself is already committed to trying to take control of fishing rights, but many within the party want more Some would like to renegotiate the Common Agricultural Policy. Getting rid of European health and safety rules such as the working time directive and new workers rights in the Social chapter are high on the list of demands. DAVID DAVIES MP: I cannot conceive of a Conservative Government in the future leaving in place the social chapter, not just because of its Labour law overtones but because it means the rest of Europe can overrule us and tell us what laws we should have in that area and there are others too. JOHN REDWOOD MP: Is it enough merely to say we're going to renegotiate fishing or should we also say that the Social Chapter - which all Conservative members of parliament voted against - should no longer apply in Britain under a Conservative government? If so I think that will require a re-negotiation as well. So I think near the election William Hague has got to put before the British people what his re-negotiation would amount to. How much flexibility he wants on things that have already happened. BEALE: The issue of re-negotiation is still being considered by the shadow cabinet. An internal party discussion paper penned by Archie Norman warns: "We should as far as possible avoid the language of re-negotiation..." It goes on to say that : "Some element of re-negotiation in the manifesto is unavoidable. It is a question of how it is described" MAUDE: It has a connotation for people at both extremes of the argument - there may be some for all I know for whom re-negotiation is code for getting out of the European union. HELMER: We in the party seem to be very coy about the word re-negotiation, but it seems to me that if we are committed to going back to areas like fisheries and bringing back national control of fisheries then whether you like it or not that is re-negotiation. That's what we have to do, that's what the British people want and that is what I hope very much will be in large letters in the Conservative General Election manifesto. BEALE: But the language has so far been limited to future flexibility. Even that would still need the approval of all member states. But rewriting past treaties may prove to be as difficult as changing the favourite dish of a long established restaurant. BEALE: Though as a last resort other countries could always be reminded of who helps pay the bill REDWOOD: We make a very big contribution to the budget. I'm sure they wouldn't want to jeopardise that kind of relationship in any way. We can remind as were paying for a lot of the show maybe we should have a bit more influence over the show. BEALE: Such suggestions may be simply unpalatable. The former shadow foreign secretary is calling for a more cautious approach. He says they should limit its demands. JOHN MAPLES MP: I think if we said we wanted to go back and renegotiate bits of the past I think we'd find that impossible to achieve in negotiation. Forward flexibility may well be something that we can achieve and I believe we can. BEALE: Back in Brussels as the EU government's prepare to sign the new treaty even such modest changes may never reach the table. Out of office the Tories are effectively out of the discussions. Euro-sceptics warn if the party doesn't commit itself to re-negotiation, more people will be wanting out altogether: CASH: What I'm saying is that there is an increasing call for withdrawal from certain quarters in the United Kingdom, and that that will simply be increased if in fact we don't have a clear blue light policy of re- negotiation which does stand up which is not withdrawal, which is in favour of the single market , but which at the same time upholds the right of the British people to govern themselves. HELMER: The other member states will realise that if in the long term the British people don't get what they want out of Europe, then indeed the question of withdrawal will arise whether we like it or not. So that will be lurking in the background of the negotiations. BEALE: The Conservative leadership still hopes that it's created a recipe that can unite the party and attract the voters too. But pro-Europeans are already concerned that re-negotiation will one day appear on the menu. As for the Euro-sceptics they are already asking for more.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.