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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first to Europe.
This week Europe's bankers are getting together to decide how much more
money the European Union should give to help the Balkan countries - including
Kosovo - recover from their ruinous conflicts. The Union's been accused
- by NATO amongst others - of pursuing war more effectively than re-building
after the peace. It's an important test for those who want Brussels to
take a more active role in creating a common European foreign policy.
If it fails, some of Europe's leaders say it will destroy the credibility
of such a policy.
Well a central figure in
all this is our own Chris Patten, a former Chairman of the Conservative
Party of course, who's now External Affairs Commissioner of the European
Union. But before I come to that, if I may Mr Patten, a few words about
Northern Ireland because of course you chaired the commission that recommended
sweeping changes to the RUC and yesterday the Ulster Unionist voted unanimously
that if those changes are acted upon they will not go back into an executive,
so in other words that's it effectively for the peace process. Did you
get it wrong?
CHRIS PATTEN: No I don't think we did.
I thought our report on policing made very good sense. A lot of it was
I think beyond controversy, sensible ideas for modern policing in Northern
Ireland. What was controversial, which of course touches on the debate
yesterday by Unionists, was our strong argument that we should try to detach
policing in Northern Ireland from the partisan political argument.
HUMPHRYS: Change the name of the
RUC, get rid of the cap badge and...
PATTEN: Yes remove those symbols
which are regarded by one side of the community as meaning that policing
is owned by the other side. Now that may be unfair but that's how it's
seen and I don't think that the decision by the Ulster Unionists yesterday
did the police any favours. I think that's a point which has been made
by the Chief Constable and the previous Chief Constable as well. I think
it was an unwise decision and I think that Ulster Unionists will have reason
to regret it and I think the police will deeply regret it.
HUMPHRYS: But you can't jeopardise
the whole peace process for the sake of a couple of very very divisive
recommendations. Shouldn't you say now, or shouldn't somebody say now,
let's drop them.
PATTEN: Let's remember why there
was an independent commission on policing because frankly the issue was
too hot for local politicians to handle in the run up to the Good Friday
Agreement so it was agreed that there should be an independent commission
which would bring forward proposals. These issues of security and these
issues of symbolism go right to the heart of the political argument. I
don't think anybody else will put forward a better set of proposals than
we managed, many of which can be implemented without any changes in the
political or security situation but obviously you can't ignore what the
situation is like on the ground. I do very much sympathise with those who've
said, look a basis for what we agreed on Good Friday in Belfast was that
we should give up the gun, that there should be decommissioning and I think
that the fact that there hasn't been has clearly put huge pressure on Unionists,
including moderate Unionists.
HUMPHRYS: Sorry, you say you can't
ignore what's going on around, does that mean that you might perhaps think,
maybe some of those recommendations, those two particularly divisive ones
should be looked at again?
PATTEN: No, not those but I think
there are some other things that we recommended which will undoubtedly
depend on the security situation and will depend on the continuance of
an executive.
HUMPHRYS: Right, Kosovo. We are
not meeting - we the European Union - is not meeting the promises that
were made to Kosovo are we?
PATTEN: I think we are doing better
than some of the critics have suggested but we are not doing as well as
we should and that was the reason for the decision taken by European heads
of government at the end of last week, that Javier Solana, the representative
of foreign ministers and I should do rather more to try and pull things
together, not just in Kosovo but in the Balkans in general. We learnt quite
a lot of lessons after Bosnia about delivering assistance more rapidly
but we didn't learn enough and we still find it's taking us too long to
do things. We still find we have to work with lousy procedures which make
it difficult for even very good people to do the job that they would like
to do. So there's a lot for us to do to make sure in particular that during
this summer, between end of one winter, beginning of another, we make substantial
progress in reconstruction and rehabilitation in Kosovo.
HUMPHRYS: Which costs a great deal
of money and there is indeed not just a lot but an enormous amount - just
remind you - you won't need reminding what Mr Prodi said in June of last
year: we owe the Balkans a clear future, the sums will be enormous three
to four billion pounds for the next five years'. Well now, what actually
happened after that was in July, the European Union pledged, the European
Commission pledge ninety million for '99 and then three hundred million
every year for five years. That's less than a tenth of the figures that
Romano Prodi said were needed.
PATTEN: No, but he was talking
about figures for the whole of the Balkans. We're talking about spending
this year in Kosovo about three hundred and sixty million. Our programme
for Kosovo will mean that we spend there just over a billion, just over
half the world bank assessment of what's needed and I think that represents...I
think that represents a good contribution by Europe. The real question,
however, I think goes beyond that, given that two plus two continue to
equal four, we do need to get the money from European governments, we do
need to bridge the gap between rhetoric and reality. So the sorts of money
that we're talking about for Kosovo and for the Balkans will either mean
that we have to do less in other areas, and substantially less, or else
that we need more money.
HUMPHRYS: So we need more money
is the conclusion of that isn't it, including from Britain.
PATTEN: I think the conclusion
is that we need to do both, we need more money and we are going to have
to make some cuts elsewhere because to be realistic I don't think that
member states are going to provide the sort of increase in money, after
the agreements they made in Berlin, that one might like to see. But we
can, I think, juggle the money around a bit and make sure that we can do
more in the Balkans, even at the expense of doing a little bit less elsewhere.
HUMPHRYS: So this country has not
stumped up enough - so far.
PATTEN: This country..I think all
European governments have stumped up for this year enough for us to make
a real contribution to improving things in Kosovo. The real question is
that it's a long term commitment. We are going to be in there for some
time and we've got to recognise that we'll need to spend a lot over the
next four or five years...
HUMPHRYS: ..a lot more...
PATTEN: A lot more, we need a programme
which is increasing but we also need to do some other things as well. I'm
very keen that we should have a more benign trading relationship with the
Balkans. I'm very keen that we should have better trade deals with the
Balkans in order to encourage their economies to grow and prosper, about
eighty per cent of their trade at present comes into Europe duty free but
I think we should be doing more to help them in areas like agriculture,
steel, textiles and so on.
HUMPHRYS: So when Lord Robertson,
formerly George Robertson, Secretary General of NATO says 'we're on the
razor edge' and he's referring specifically to Kosovo here, 'between success
and failure', and he went on to say, 'the sad reality is we rose to the
crisis in a military context after that we're not willing to follow it
through', are you saying he's right?
PATTEN: Yeah. I think George Robertson
is entirely right in saying that we put a huge amount into the war and
we haven't shown the same political commitment and economic commitment
to making the peace work and I think that's a point that the Prime Minister
here has been putting with considerable vigour and eloquence. I heard
him putting that point on Thursday night in Lisbon to his fellow heads
of government.....
HUMPHRYS: But not saying therefore
that we will stump up another ex amount of money?
PATTEN: No... I mean there isn't.....
let me make it clear there is no argument that we should be spending more
in Kosovo and more in the Balkans.....
HUMPHRYS: A lot more......
PATTEN: A lot more. The dispute
is going to be where it comes from and that's going to be decided in various
arcane ways in Brussels over the next few months I guess. The important
thing that I think George Robertson is saying is this: that it's always
hugely more expensive to fight a war than to make sure that peace works.
If we don't manage to keep things on the rails in the next year or two,
if we don't manage to support success when it starts to show, for example
in Croatia and Macedonia and one or two other places, if we give...
HUMPHRYS: Montenegro for the future.
PATTEN: And Montenegro for the
future. Montenegro, where at the moment Milosevic is trying to stir up
trouble. If we don't keep things on the rails then the consequences will
be far more costly than anything we are doing at the moment.
HUMPHRYS: But, we are not even
doing it at the moment adequately with Kosovo. We have not provided the
police force that they desperately need, that Kouchner said that they desperately
need, without it cannot return to a proper civilian administration.
PATTEN: I think the problem of
policing in Kosovo underlines a gap we have in Europe, probably beyond
Europe as well in our ability to manage crises, to cope with crises and
to prevent conflict and that is the ability to provide a force which is
somewhere between ordinary policing and their military presence.
HUMPHRYS: Paramilitary?
PATTEN: Yes, you are not talking
about, as I have said before, you are not talking about Dixon of Dock Green,
you're not talking about the sort of neighbour policing that we were talking
about in that report on Northern Ireland...
HUMPHRYS: ..the RUC in a way..
PATTEN: ...well the RUC it has
to be said, have sent officers to Kosovo and are doing an extremely good
job. They do have more of the sort of training which is actually required
for the situation in Kosovo. They have experience of dealing with difficult
public order situations, they've go experience of dealing with firearms,
they actually have more of the sort of capacity which is actually required.
But when we start looking as we have to, not just at providing more military
capability as Europeans, but also providing more non-military capacity
to deal with crises, I think we do have to look at this problem of policing
because at the moment it's a real gap, we've been sending more policing..more
police to Kosovo, Britain has done so, Spain and Germany have just announced
that they are doing so but it is difficult, I repeat, to find that quality
of policing which is required somewhere like that.
HUMPHRYS: And if we can't find
them, then Kosovo is going to suffer, we are all going to suffer in the
long run because of the broad picture.
PATTEN: I think we are beginning
to close that gap, perhaps we needed to be more realistic at the outset
about how we could provide that sort of policing, that very focused almost
paramilitary policing as you were saying. We are starting to close that
gap but we have got a lot further to go as Bernard Kouchner would be the
first to say.
HUMPHRYS: And if we fail, it isn't
just that Kosovo itself will suffer, but the European Union is going to
suffer because this is an absolutely crucial test for its credibility.
PATTEN: European leaders, not giving
up member states' control over foreign and security policy, the idea that
President Chirac or Chancellor Schroeder or Tony Blair are going to give
the national interest in foreign policy, but European leaders have recognised
that there are some things that Europe can do more effectively if it works
in the aggregate, if people try to work together. We are the biggest trading
organisation in the world, we are the bigger donor of development assistance,
humanitarian assistance, we are a huge contributor to the UN but we don't
have the political clout internationally that should go with that and what
Europe's leaders have said is that we should try to develop common positions
in foreign and security policy and in particular that we should try to
contribute more to our own defence, that we should build up within NATO
a greater defence capacity and that we should be able, if NATO doesn't
want to get involved to deal with issues, perhaps in the Balkans or elsewhere,
on our own.
HUMPHRYS: But if we can't solve
the problems in our own back yard...
PATTEN: Absolutely right. I think
the Balkans is the big test case and it's the big test case and that the
Americans keep on referring to. There is some scepticism in America about
whether we can really make a go of developing our own security and defence
identity and a lot of Americans, senators and congressmen point to the
Balkans as being the real test. I think it is crucial for Transatlantic
relations that we do show in the Balkans that we do show with them an enhanced
military capability, that we are capable in Europe of doing more to look
after ourselves.
HUMPHRYS: It's also crucial here
at home isn't it, whether we are seen to succeed, however you define success,
in the Balkans is a crucial factor there in either building up or undermining
the attitude that people have here towards the European Union, towards
the Euro, and what you're seeing at the moment clearly, and you spend enough
time in this country to know this very well, is that we're moving further
and further away from our embrace of the Euro, for our embrace of a closer
European integration.
PATTEN: I don't think that the
- and this is perhaps to put it mildly - I don't think the debate on Europe
has gone particularly well for people like me who think that Britain's
future has to lie in playing a constructive central role in the European
Union. One of the curiosities I find is that there's no argument, there's
no debate about us playing a central role in NATO, about pooling our sovereignty
in NATO, but people are doubtful about how much we should do as part of
the European Union. I think that is a curiosity. But we do...
HUMPHRYS: .... see what a bureaucratic
mess the European Union is apart from anything else?
PATTEN: Well, I think that we are
with a - not least in the area for which I'm responsible - responsible
for spending a very great deal of money, one of the biggest development
programmes in the world. We are trying to reform our procedures, we are
trying to make things more effective, to make things better focussed, to
make things happen faster. As you can imagine after being responsible
for Hong Kong for a few years where there was a real can do atmosphere,
it's sometimes frustrating that it takes quite so long to make things happen
in Brussels, but that is very often because of the constraints put on us
by member states and member governments. If European taxpayers want us
to make more of an impact then they've got to tell their governments that
they should create an atmosphere in which we can.
HUMPHRYS: But what they're actually
telling their governments, certainly in this country anyway what people
are telling the government is that they're becoming increasingly disenchanted
and we now see the position developing where it well may be that there
won't even be a referendum on the Euro in the next parliament. What would
your reaction to that be?
PATTEN: I think there should be
a referendum on the Euro when the economic conditions are right, and I
would certainly be in those circumstances strongly in favour of Britain
joining the Euro. For me it doesn't raise some fundamental principle of
sovereignty. I think that is rather a curious argument though one I recognise.
There are strong arguments on both sides, but I happen to take the view
I've just expressed.
HUMPHRYS: So, would you be happy
to wait until even after the next parliament, if Mr Brown or somebody said
actually the economic conditions aren't quite right and one of those five
tests haven't been met?
PATTEN: No, I very much hope it'll
be early in the next parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Early in the next parliament?
PATTEN: I very much hope that because
even though I know the argument about influence can be overdone, I've got
no doubt at all that as other countries join the Euro, and we could be
in a situation in a couple of years where fourteen out of the fifteen member
states will be in the Euro, as other join the Euro there's no doubt at
all that we do lose some influence over important economic decisions.
You can't deny that that's true. It's clearly the case. I don't think
it's the case at the moment, but I think it would inevitably become the
case, so I hope that we will join when the economic circumstances are right
and I hope going back to where we started this particular discussion, I
hope that we can demonstrate by making our aspirations in the Balkans credible
through success on the ground that Europe can do some things better and
that Europe can from time to time help nation states through encouraging
more effective co-operation between them.
HUMPHRYS: Chris Patten, thank you
very much indeed.
PATTEN: Thank you.
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