JOHN HUMPHRYS:                   Well with me now is the 
Foreign Office Minister, Peter Hain.

                              Mr Hain, what should 
the government's position be here, should it be to isolate and to punish 
Mugabe or should it be to try and appease him and buy him off?

PETER HAIN:                Neither, we're not into either 
appeasing him, nor are we into trying to punish him. What is important 
is we stand by the Zimbabwean people, which he has not on in trying to 
bring in a serious land reform programme for example that really does address 
poverty and landless rural workers rather than handing it out to his cronies, 
land which is not then farmed, or to agree an economic programme of reform 
from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, but unfortunately 
the policies that have been pursued have made that impossible. So we are 
ready to help the Zimbabwean people, it's the government that is getting 
in the way. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But Robin Cook, the Foreign 
Secretary, saw Mr Mugabe this week, apparently to try to cut some sort 
of deal and no sooner had he said goodbye to him than Mugabe was sounding 
off again and threatening to go to the trenches and all the rest of it. 


HAIN:                        Well it has been 
very difficult to do normal inter-governmental business with President 
Mugabe, that's one of the sad things about it. We regret that, we want 
to establish a relationship with the Zimbabwean government that behaves 
rationally, that conducts its policies in order to support its people rather 
than indulging in diplomatic fisticuffs with its oldest friend Britain. 


HUMPHRYS:                    But seeing the way he 
has behaved, not just in the past few weeks and months for many years now, 
isn't it time to get really tough with him?

HAIN:                        Well John, some people 
have accused me of getting too tough with him..

HUMPHRYS:                    Indeed they have..

HAIN:                        Some people have 
said we shouldn't have been as strong, that I shouldn't have been as strong. 
I don't take that view, I think that it's important that especially a Labour 
Government, which has enjoyed close links with the struggle for freedom 
in Zimbabwe against the old racist regime of Ian Smith and subsequently, 
that when we see policies being pursued and activities being conducted 
by the President which are wrong and not in the interests of his own people 
we say so, and we say so bluntly. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But it should be more 
than that shouldn't it, more than just saying things bluntly and talking 
tough, it should be tough actions, there are things you can do.

HAIN:                        Well people want 
toughness and punishment and so on, what I want is success. I want the 
Zimbabwean people to be in a country which is moving forward rather than 
going down the drain and unfortunately and economically and in other respects 
that is happening at the present time.  What you do have I think in Zimbabwe 
at the present moment is the beginnings of a debate, there is a strong 
opposition for the first time in a long while and I think there is a debate 
about the way the country is going and Britain wants....stands ready to 
help when the policies are put in place, as I hope they will be sooner 
rather than later, that enable not just Britain by the way, the Americans 
have had to pull out their land reform support, other donor countries in 
Europe are similarly frustrated. We are not alone in this but as Zimbabwe's 
oldest friend, perhaps we have found ourselves in the firing line. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But it's sending very 
confused signals isn't it to the Opposition in Zimbabwe apart from anybody 
else, if the Foreign Secretary goes to see...sits alongside Mr Mugabe as 
he did in Cairo last week and to use the words of Francis Maude he seen 
to be creeping and crawling around him and smarming up to him and humiliating 
Britain in the process. 

HAIN:                        No, it's right that 
you should try and talk to a head of state as Robin Cook did in Cairo with 
President  Obasanjo of Nigeria as it were chairing the session. It's right 
that every effort should be made to talk to people if it's possible to 
talk to them, but I also think that it's important that the Zimbabwean 
people understand as the government already I'm sure does, that Britain 
is not a soft touch. We are not about to provide extra development aid 
and assistance or dish out money simply because he's demanding it to a 
flawed land reform programme or to assist with the IMF or the World Bank 
providing financial support, we are not about to do that when the policies 
that are being pursued are unfortunately bankrupt. 

HUMPHRYS:                 But it does depend how you talk 
as well doesn't it. I mean again to quote Francis Maude there, there was 
the Foreign Secretary behaving in this way...

HAIN:                        ...that's not true...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...well I mean..he says 
you wouldn't know because you weren't even allowed in the room, Mugabe 
doesn't like you for reasons that are entirely obvious, you've been very 
outspoken about him, you yourself have been very outspoken about him and 
Mugabe wouldn't even have you in the room while he was meeting the Foreign 
Secretary...

HAIN:                        That never arose 
because it was...

HUMPHRYS:                    Were you there?

HAIN:                        No I wasn't because 
it was a meeting between the Foreign Secretary and President Mugabe with 
President  Obasanjo there. I have met Robert Mugabe a number of times in 
the past and we've had perfectly civil discussions but the point is not... 
this is really juvenile stuff from the Opposition. The important thing 
is to get in place policies that really do pull Zimbabwe away from this 
desperate crisis into which it's been plunged by its own government, that 
is the tragedy that is the sadness of the situation. 

HUMPHRYS:                    The question is how are 
we going to do it?  We've got the European Union Foreign Minister's meeting 
tomorrow haven't we to talk about various things including perhaps cutting 
off aid to Zimbabwe.  Are you in favour of that?

HAIN:                        Well what I will 
talk about is a British proposal for international observers.  It's very 
important that the elections that are coming up are free and fair and all 
African countries in the region, South Africa for example have invited 
international observers in and Zimbabwe has never done that.  I think that's 
the priority.  Our aid programme is very small, very small indeed.  It 
does virtually .... None of it goes through the government it goes through 
non-governmental organisations direct to the anti poverty strategies and 
the reason we can't help fund the government is that the policies that 
are being pursued do not allow for that because there's no guarantee that 
you'd get value for money if you did it.

HUMPHRYS:                    So that bit which does 
go to the government, that should be cut off shouldn't it?

HAIN:                        Well that could be 
looked at.

HUMPHRYS:                    Will it be?

HAIN:                    `    It is being looked 
at at the present moment.  It's very small but in a sense it's part of 
an historic package.........

HUMPHRYS:                    But part of it's a gesture 
as well as everything else.  It's sending a signal isn't it, that's the 
point?

HAIN:                        Indeed, and I think 
in the appropriate circumstances, no doubt Claire Short would want to look 
at that, but I think at the moment the priority is fair and free elections, 
it's important that that proceeds.  Unfortunately the signs are not encouraging 
in that respect.  There's been a lot of violence, a lot of lawlessness 
officially sanctioned if not actually organised by the government from 
right at the top.

HUMPHRYS:                    And there are other signals 
you could send as well aren't there such as suspending Zimbabwe from the 
Commonwealth, stopping the supply of spare parts for Hawk fighter aircraft 
and so on and so on and so on - there's a whole raft of things:  freezing 
assets overseas, all kinds of things you could do or you should do.

HAIN:                        In the case of the 
Commonwealth of course the Commonwealth's rules don't provide for a country 
in Zimbabwe's situation to be suspended, it provides, for example, Pakistan 
which has had a military coup or Nigeria previously to be suspended but 
I would think that the Commonwealth ministerial action group meeting here 
in London next month will discuss Zimbabwe, there's no question about that 
unless the situation has radically improved as we hope it will do.  These 
other measures can also be considered and are under consideration but they're 
not in the end addressing the central point;  Hawk spares for the use of 
a couple of planes in the Congo conflict are not actually anything to do 
with getting free and fair elections (both speaking at once)  I would have 
thought the signals we've sent, as I said earlier to the point of bluntness, 
have been very very clear.  We do not think that what is happening in Zimbabwe 
at the moment, the policies being pursued by President Mugabe, the way 
he conducts his diplomatic relations are in the interests of the Zimbabwean 
people and that's pretty plain and obvious because the economy has been 
declining, there are fuel shortages, there's political instability - what 
is needed is good governance in Zimbabwe, the sooner the better.

HUMPHRYS:                    We were prepared to recall 
the High Commissioner over the opening of a British diplomatic bag which 
we regarded as a pretty heinous crime.  Well he's been doing some much 
more heinous things than that over the past weeks and months, yet our High 
Commissioner is still there.

HAIN:                        He is and he's seeking 
to engage with the Zimbabwean people and their government to try and encourage 
land reform programmes that are serious for instance.  We've said we will 
help with the land reform programme.....

HUMPHRYS:                    But frankly the idea 
of Mugabe listening to your High Commissioner is just pathetic isn't it 
really - he's just not going to is he?  He's made it perfectly clear.

HAIN:                        Well what is important 
here is not gesture politics of the kind Francis Maude and the Tories are 
demanding and this that and the other.  What is important is policies that 
work.  Now the Americans have shown by withdrawing their support for land 
reform that they have effectively imposed a kind of sanctions there.  There 
are effectively negative sanctions imposed by President Mugabe on his own 
country in this sense that the money through the international financial 
institutions is there to help but it's the policies and the unwillingness 
to reform that is stopping them going in.

HUMPHRYS:                    If it all goes pear-shaped, 
if it gets worse than it is at the moment and we have the spectacle of 
many, many thousands of white people, some of them with British passports 
wanting to come back to Britain, some of them come to Britain for the first 
time and we're talking totally about eighty thousand people, would we say 
- 'Yes, the door is open to you'?

HAIN:                        Well British passport 
holders.........

HUMPHRYS:                    ..... of course they'd 
have the right to come.......

HAIN:                        ....have the right 
to come......

HUMPHRYS:                    Of course, but there 
may be another sixty thousand who don't have British passports but who 
would say 'well we have connections to Britain...', would we say - 'Yeah, 
by all means come.'?

HAIN:                        No.  There's a normal 
procedure:  If people have or can claim British passports through an ancestor 
then obviously they go through that procedure and indeed we have had some 
people going through it at the present time but I don't want to anticipate 
failure, I want Zimbabwe to succeed, I hope that President Mugabe will 
draw back from the brink and encourage free and fair elections and political 
stability and then the country can move forward and Britain as I say stands 
ready to help.

HUMPHRYS:                    But it's not very likely 
that things are going to go well does it, I mean let's be frank about it.....

HAIN:                        The signs haven't 
been encouraging.......

HUMPHRYS:                    .....absolutely so therefore 
we're going to find an awful lot of people who may well say - 'Britain 
is our last hope'.

HAIN:                        Well I'm not sure 
about that because those Zimbabweans, and we're talking mainly about whites 
but not exclusively who've been targeted in this way are Zimbabweans.  
They're not English or Welsh or Scottish, they want to stay in the country, 
they want to contribute, they want to farm, their skills are needed, their 
resources are needed and I hope the government will make use of them.

HUMPHRYS:                    You say it isn't looking 
very promising and most people would agree with that assessment but you 
appear not to have, as it were, a plan B

HAIN:                        We've had a very 
clear strategy from the time that it was obvious that the situation was 
deteriorating to constantly seek to persuade the Zimbabwean government 
that in the interests of its own people, different policies are needed. 
 The priority now, at this historic moment for Zimbabwe, a make or break 
time, is to get free and fair elections - that's what we're concentrating 
on, that's what everybody should be focussing on.

HUMPHRYS:                    Peter Hain, thank you 
very much indeed.

HAIN:                     Thank you.