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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Tomorrow is the second
anniversary of the signing of the agreement that was meant to devolve power
to a Northern Ireland assembly, to create a new future for the province
and a permanent peace. But the assembly has been suspended, the Unionists
have imposed new conditions on starting it up again and Sinn Fein have
warned that the end result of all this could be a return to violence. The
chairman of Sinn Fein is Mitchell McLaughlin and he's in our Dublin studio.
Mr McLaughlin, don't you
accept that the only way to break what's now being described as this 'Mexican
stand off' is for both sides, I emphasise both sides, to make concessions?
MITCHELL MCLAUGHLIN: Well John, yes I think both sides
have to stretch themselves even further to understand the difficulties
of each other. From our point of view we have two additional problems
on top of the existing difficulties: one is that it seems to us now manifestly
obvious that David Trimble's difficulties with his own party, the divisions
there, mean that he can't stand over any deal with us and secondly the
actions of Peter Mandelson in taking away political institutions that were
actually voted for by the people of Ireland has knocked a huge hole in
the confidence of the Nationalist community that the British government
will act honourably. So we have to overcome those problems as well as
the other remaining difficulties that were not sorted out at the time of
the Good Friday Agreement itself.
HUMPHRYS: You acknowledge that
Mr Trimble has...in a sense you acknowledged in that answer that he's tried
and failed, I mean he has tried to do something, he's tried to fly a bit
of a flag in Washington last month and he was promptly cut down to size
as a result of it so you really now, the Republican movement really now
has to do something to try and move it forward doesn't it?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, and at our party conference
yesterday in the opening address I made this appeal to David Trimble 'Let's
build on the silence of the guns. Let's end the war of words between us
and let's commence if you like the battle for ideas within the political
institutions because it's our view that unless we do, that David Trimble
is actually going to be destroyed by the right wing of his own party.
He may not survive as leader until the end of this year otherwise and I
think his only salvation really is to move into the political institutions
with us and on a good faith basis across the table, let's address those
outstanding problems including disarmament.
HUMPHRYS: Well of course he can't
just move into the political institutions with you without his party saying
so, there is no way his party would say so therefore what you've got to
do is give him some help and what the help you could give would be to make
what is described, and I use the quote 'the unmistakable signal of their
peaceful intentions...', that is that the Republican Movement should offer
an unmistakable signal of their peaceful intentions which would be worth
more than a one-off token gesture and could get it all moving and could
give Mr Trimble what he needs to get back into the institutions with you.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well John, and I want to be
as constructive about this as I can, but the difficulties in David Trimble's
party has to do with the process of political change, equality for Nationalists,
Nationalists and Republicans in government. His difficulties in his party
are not about disarmament of the IRA because David Trimble is saying exactly
what his opponents are saying on that matter, they've introduced the additional
effort of rejecting Patten so it's clear that their rejections will actually
move from one issue to another. The next one quite clearly has been flagged
up to be the Criminal Justice review report that was published by Peter
Mandelson last week, so we can see that the rejectionist wing of Unionism
will simply raise obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. Now if we get
to a point where David Trimble comes into Stormont, tomorrow morning, to
say that 'I know I will not be able to bring that part of my party,' which
is less than half of his party, 'along with me, I know that, but I will
work with those who are progressive within my party' then Sinn Fein will
reciprocate. We could have the Executive back tomorrow afternoon and we
could have the Assembly fully functioning by tomorrow afternoon. It's
as close as that but clearly it is as difficult as that also. We can
only sort this out when we're all round the table and sharing power and
responsibility for each other.
HUMPHRYS: But what you describe
is precisely what David Trimble has actually been doing or trying to do
but of course if he went that extra stage that you're now suggesting without
something behind him, something that he could point to as an achievement,
they will chuck him out of the party as you acknowledged a couple of answers
ago, so the Republican Movement has to give him something, they have to
say, in effect, 'the war is over'.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well John, I'm making this
point that even, even if that was possible, and in my view it isn't possible
and I see no advantage in having a divided Unionist party and a divided
IRA, I don't think that would help the process either. It is my view that
if we deal with the politics and making politics work, that those within
the Unionist community, and they are a majority even if it's a slim majority,
will I think come along with David Trimble and they will give him sustained
support, but I'm not sure whether David Trimble is prepared to take that
gamble. There's support within the Assembly itself from the Alliance party,
from the Women's Coalition, from the Progressive Unionist Party votes to
sustain his position so I think we could have the Executive back but we
know that there are those within Unionism who are not and who will never
be reconciled to this process of change and the British government have
to be aware of that and if there's any strategic thinking at that level,
Peter Mandelson knows that David Trimble's position is weaker today than
it was before the Assembly was suspended by Peter Mandelson. That was
a crucial mistake and it should be reversed by the British government.
HUMPHRYS: But as far as David Trimble
is concerned he is prepared to take great risks with his own party, he
said, and I quote - 'We are prepared to be involved in a fresh sequence...'
in other words to get back into the institutions, presumably, 'that would
not involve arms up front.' So in other words he's saying - 'Come and
meet me halfway. At least give me something to go with'.
MCLAUGHLIN: We have gone to meet him and
we've asked him to explain what he meant by that and we've discovered that
he has reversed himself. Now possibly under pressure from his within his
own party but that which he said in Washington is no longer available to
us, What we find then is that David Trimble is virtually a prisoner of
his right wing and we're saying to him - 'We can't help you with that right
wing. It has to be Unionists saying to fellow Unionists - This way will
not work''. And if David Trimble is asking for certainty, the one certainty
that's available to him is that his approach on IRA disarmament won't work
and it clearly, in terms of the political structure, that approach will
not allow us to get into power sharing or responsibility sharing. I think
David Trimble knows that and let's move back to what we know will work.
HUMPHRYS: But you cannot put the
entire onus on him...
MCLAUGHLIN: ...I'm not..
HUMPHRYS: ...let me remind you
what one of your own former colleagues Danny Morrison said and I quote
again 'in truth the war is over'. Well now, why cannot you yourselves
now, the Republican Movement now say that in terms and then David Trimble
will have something with which he can work and we can get the whole thing
back on track.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well you see if it was that
simple then clearly that would happen. Now the fact that it didn't happen
obliges people like you who I know have taken a clear interest over a long
period. I mean if we have in the North two hundred and forty British security
bases still, six years into a cessation, then clearly nobody on the British
government side either can say that the war is over. But if you look at
where we started six years ago, we had war on our streets, the guns are
silent and let's build on that now by putting in place political institutions
and we will get to the point that you are describing I think very quickly.
HUMPHRYS: If that doesn't happen
Gerry Adams says there could be return to violence but of course there
cannot be a return to IRA violence can there because there is no threat
to the peace process from the IRA, is what Mr Adams has said, so can you
be quite clear this morning that there is no possibility of the IRA returning
to violence?.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well it is my opinion that
what Gerry Adams was describing is that political vacuums in the North
of Ireland have always provided opportunities for those who would resort
to political violence and it has happened time and time again...and he
echoed in his comments the words of the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair
said exactly the same thing and Bertie Ahern the Irish Taoiseach said exactly
the same thing. So we know what the onus is, the onus is on all those with
a mandate, including our party, to get round the table and to discharge
the mandates that they got from the electorate and that does, they make
the institutions work, those that we have already agreed, make them work
and in doing so take away any rationale for anybody, from any section of
our community or indeed the British military establishment to return to
violence.
HUMPHRYS: Mitchell McLaughlin thank
you very much indeed.
MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you very much John.
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