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JOHN HUMPHRYS: There was a great sigh of
relief in Westminster, Dublin and Belfast yesterday when the Ulster Unionists
agreed to go back into a devolved government after it had been suspended
because the IRA wouldn't give up its weapons. But the vote was about as
close as it gets and the future of the new Executive depends on what the
IRA does now. If it does nothing, if it does not begin the process soon,
well then it's back to square one. So now the ball's in the Republicans
court. Martin McGuinness is the Chief Negotiator for Sinn Fein. He's in
our Derry studio.
Good afternoon Mr McGuinness.
MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Good afternoon John.
HUMPHRYS: You always make it clear
on these occasions that you do not and cannot speak for the IRA, but it's
clear that they do now have to deliver and deliver pretty soon don't they.
MCGUINNESS: Well I think everybody has
to deliver and there is a responsibility on everyone to live up to the
commitments that they have made, not least the British government and I
think we have to remember the context in which all of this took place.
The breakthrough came yesterday on the back of an initiative by the Sinn
Fein leadership in the course of the last few months, that led to the discussions
at Hillsborough, the agreement to come out of that, the joint statement
from the two governments and the letter to the party leaders and of course
following that there came the IRA initiative. Now I think that the context
is very very important. It is very important that we realise and understand
that there is a responsibility on everybody to fulfil their commitments
and of course the British Government have to fulfil their commitments on
things like Patten which has to be implemented in full. On the issue of
demilitarisation of course we will see the re-establishment of the institutions
next week. We also need to see justice issues dealt with and the whole
gambit of the content of the Good Friday Agreement needs to implemented
as a matter of urgency. Everybody has to deliver.
HUMPHRYS: But you would agree with
Bertie Ahern who said 'I hope they, the IRA, will implement it as quickly
as possible within a matter of weeks as agreed.'
MCGUINNESS: Well I think what we have to
do is ensure that everybody lives up to their commitments and for us critically
within the Republican constituency it is vitally important that we see
the British government embrace the type of change which the Good Friday
Agreement promised. Now yesterday was obviously a good day for the agreement
and it was a good result for the Ulster Unionist council to eventually
face down the rejectionists who are out to destroy this agreement because
they are opposed to it lock, stock and barrel. It's just a pity that a
sour note was struck by David Trimble when he talked quite offensively
about the need for Sinn Fein to be house trained. That has caused a huge
reaction within the Nationalist community. People view those comments as
effectively sectarian and racist and I think he needs to recognise that
the way forward for all of us has to be through inclusivity, equality and
respect..
HUMPHRYS: His job is on the line,
his position is on the line, the Ulster Unionist Party is on the line in
a sense, its whole future is on the line and last time he persuaded the
party to jump and nothing happened. He took a gamble in a sense and it
failed, the IRA did not deliver what it was supposed to deliver. It can't
happen again can it, if it does that that's it.
MCGUINNESS: Well I think the difficulty
all along and you and I have had many interviews over the course of recent
years about the peace process, about the Good Friday Agreement and about
the issue of decommissioning. The difficulty all along is clearly that
the Ulster Unionist approach to this issue, the securicrat approach within
the British military establishment to this issue was totally and absolutely
wrong. It was also outside the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, so hopefully
we will now see a much more realistic view from the Ulster Unionist leadership
as to how we resolve this particular matter in the course of the weeks
and months ahead.
HUMPHRYS: And if in the months
ahead, many months ahead now, if we look ahead to June of next year, by
which time the entire Good Friday Agreement should be implemented, by that
date you would expect that the IRA would have played its part and would
have decommissioned completely, it would be finished by June of next year.
MCGUINNESS: Well I think the IRA published
their statement in the aftermath of the Hillsborough agreement and that
statement is very very clear and I think if people want to examine that
statement they will clearly see that there is a commitment in that statement
given that all of the other participants to the process fulfil their commitments,
that the IRA leadership will deal with the issue of arms. Now from our
point of view in Sinn Fein and the Sinn Fein leadership, we have made it
absolutely clear, in fact we were the people who coined the phrase from
the very beginning, that the object of the exercise is to remove all of
the British and Irish governments from Irish politics but we can only hope
to do that if people move forward to wholeheartedly embrace the type of
change that the Good Friday Agreement promised for everyone. The difficulty
about the Unionist stance to the Good Friday Agreement is that whenever
a debate is up about this the only issue we hear talked about is the issue
of decommissioning. You know I do look forward to the day when Unionists
will face up the type of change that the Good Friday Agreement promised
the Nationalist community wholeheartedly embraced that and move on collectively
with the rest of us to ensure that that agreement is implemented in full.
HUMPHRYS: Now one of the other
problems, very serious problem for the Ulster Unionists is the question
of the future of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. You mentioned the Patten
Report earlier that make certain recommendations, David Trimble managed
apparently to squeak through yesterday because his deputy John Taylor said
certain assurances had been made about the RUC and that is that its name
would continue in one form or another. What are the implications of that,
do you believe, for your position and the IRA's position?
MCGUINNESS: Well obviously coming out of
the Hillsborough agreement we have seen a situation where the British
Prime Minister has committed himself to the implementation of the Patten
Report. Patten makes no provision whatsoever for double barrelled names
or for the name of the RUC to be in the title deeds and we and the Republican
Nationalist community and it goes right across from Sinn Fein to the SDLP
to all the sections of the Nationalist community, we have made it clear
that the Patten proposals which have now been effectively diluted into
the Mandelson proposals on policing, are totally and absolutely unacceptable,
so it is essential if we are to provide what the Good Friday Agreement
charged us with, that is a new beginning to policing in the north, then
the British government is going to have to deal seriously with very strong
objections within the Nationalist Republican community to the legislation
which Peter Mandelson has put in place. Now from my perspective, as an
elected MP for mid-Ulster for example, I want to be in the position where
I can advocate to the young men and women and to their parents that there
is a new beginning to policing, that this is a force that they can join.
I can't do that if the British government diverge from the content of the
Patten proposals because from the very beginning we made it clear that
as far as Republicans were concerned that Patten didn't go far enough.
So Patten is the bottom line.
HUMPHRYS: And if there is any,
let's put it like this, hesitation there, or any changes are made, or indeed,
the present proposals go through as they stand, the Mandelson version of
this goes through as it stands, does that in any way, do you believe, jeopardise
the IRA's promise to open up it's arms dumps, which it should have done
now, by now, because we were talking about two to three weeks, we've had
three weeks since the promise was made, is that jeopardised in any way,
do you believe?
MCGUINNESS: Well, I mean, I think we have
to be very accurate about all of this, nobody put any time span on us at
the time of the Hillsborough agreement, people did talk about this.....
HUMPHRYS: ....well, the IRA statement
told them opening up dumps within weeks, that was the phrase in the statement.
MCGUINNESS: Yeah, but less now than two
or three weeks.
HUMPHRYS: Well, we .......
MCGUINNESS: .......they made their position,
they made their position clear that they would facilitate this. Now from
our perspective, what we want to see in Sinn Fein is everybody living up
to the commitment that they gave during the course of the Good Friday negotiations....
HUMPHRYS: .......well you made
that point but I asked you, sorry to interrupt you, sorry to interrupt
you, but I asked you that very specific question, about whether the Patton,
the present approach to Patton by the British government, and what John
Taylor said yesterday, is likely to influence the decision by the, promise
by the IRA to open up those dumps within weeks.
MCGUINNESS: Well, I mean I can't answer
for the IRA. They can, they can only answer for themselves......
HUMPHRYS: .....what would your
recommendation be?
MCGUINNESS: ....I can certainly, I can
certainly answer for Sinn Fein, and I can certainly speak on behalf of
the Nationalist community when I tell you that the Mandelson proposals,
the Mandelson legislation, is totally and absolutely unacceptable. It
does not provide a new beginning to policing and I think the British government
are going to have to take stock of that reality.
HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, that
you very much indeed.
MCGUINNESS: Thank you.
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