JOHN HUMPHRYS:                But first, in the spirit 
of opportunities for all, let's look at what the Government has in mind 
for us.  Gordon Brown really stirred things up when he attacked an Oxford 
College because it did not admit one particular young woman.  He in turn 
was roundly condemned by the College and many others for getting it wrong. 
 The debates since then have grown and grown, and the government shows 
no sign of wanting to stop them.  On the contrary, Mr. Brown returned to 
the attack in an article he wrote for the Times yesterday and John Prescott 
put in his two-pennyworth in the Independent on Sunday this morning.  But 
having set off down this path has the government any real idea where it 
will end.  Margaret Beckett is the Leader of the House of Commons - it's 
been a bit of a mistake, hasn't it, Mrs. Beckett?
                        
MARGARET BECKETT, MP:        Oh no, I don't think so at all, we've 
been working for some time along the line and along these themes of creating 
opportunity and also about taking barriers out of people's way, that's 
something that I hope people would want and expect a Labour Government 
to do.

HUMPHRYS:                    But to use a specific 
case of a young woman who didn't get into a particular college?

BECKETT:                    Well, I think everyone 
now wants to move on, because Laura Spence has her 'A' Levels to do......

HUMPHRYS:                    .....I bet you do, because 
it was mistake.

BECKETT:                    No, no, no, no, it wasn't 
a mistake, because of course, what the case of Laura Spence did, and it 
was right in the first place to come in on the back of that case, but it 
would be wrong to go on when she's got her own concerns and her own life 
to lead, but what she showed...what she highlighted, was a very, very worrying 
set of evidence, not coming from the government, but from organisations 
like the Sutton Trust, that people with the same qualifications, who go 
to state schools, don't get the same opportunities to go into our universities, 
and that's something, it's better than it used to be, but it needs to be 
better still, and that's part of creating opportunity and taking barriers 
out of the way.

HUMPHRYS:                    But the reason I am suggesting 
to you that it was a mistake is the using a, particular individual, a single 
girl, who might or might not have got into college under her own steam 
anyway, who didn't, you know, others got in when she didn't get in, and 
nobody's been prepared to say, well, somebody else should have lost their 
place or for her to go in, and we've had all that argument and it's obscured 
the debate, hasn't it?

BECKETT:                    Well, no I don't think 
it has, and I think it would be a pity if it did, because that's just one 
example and thing that is very, very clear is that there are lots of young 
people out there whose qualifications entitle them on merit to opportunities 
that at present they are not getting.  I accept that some of those in Oxford 
who have been upset and say, oh but we are trying to address this, people 
are doing more.  But the thing I've noticed that's sort of running through 
a lot of the comment on it that's coming from the universities is that 
they are still putting so much of the emphasis on the individual or the 
school and talking about the schools, building up their contacts and networking 
and so on, and yes, alright, there may be something to be said for some 
of that but I am not sure that we are still seeing enough from the universities 
about what they should be doing and the way that they should be going out 
and seeking the best talent, because on the figures, and I repeat they 
are not our figures, on the figures, the best talent is not always getting 
the opportunities it should.

HUMPHRYS:                    We'll come back to that 
in a moment if I may, but the reason that I'm suggesting a mistake, that 
partly it was a mistake apart from the fact that one young woman got caught 
up in it in the way that she did, and the Chancellor got his facts wrong 
in the early days and all the rest of it that we all know about, it's been 
going on for a long time now, is that in that same week that Mr. Brown, 
that Gordon Brown said look this is a scandal, a great scandal, that this 
college in Oxford should not have admitted this young girl, I was talking 
to the Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, who was saying, we don't want to 
recruit from Oxford and Cambridge and the elite universities for the Foreign 
Office, so, a rather peculiar tension there between the two, isn't there, 
who was right, do you want people to go to Oxford and Cambridge, so they 
can run the country and do all those things, or do you not?

BECKETT:                    It's not just about people 
going to Oxford and Cambridge, it's about people having the opportunities 
to get high quality, higher education.  And it's not just, I mean, it didn't 
even start with the Laura Spence case, it's...

HUMPHRYS:                    ....didn't it?

BECKETT:                    ....no, it's been a theme 
that we've been pursuing for some time, Alan Milburn's been talking about 
people's opportunities to go into working in the Health Service, Robin 
himself, as you say, has been talking about people's opportunities to get 
into the Civil Service, it's been.......
 
HUMPHRYS:                    .....as long as they 
haven't been to Oxbridge, yes.

BECKETT:                    ...it's been a continuing 
theme.  And the thing that is very clear is that people with identical 
qualifications, don't get anything like the same equality of opportunity 
that we would all want to see, and we think that's something that you expect 
a government, or at least a Labour government to do something about.

HUMPHRYS:                    Right, and you would 
like to get them then into these elite institutions, Oxford, Cambridge, 
Durham, Bristol, whatever.

BECKETT:                    We would like to get more 
of them into higher education and yes, we'd like to see a better proportion, 
a fairer proportion, of those who have the same qualifications, going to 
our best universities.

HUMPHRYS:                    It's a funny way that 
you've gone about it in that case, isn't it then, because you abolished 
the assisted places which helped an awful lot of youngsters from poorer 
backgrounds....

BECKETT:                    ...no it didn't...

HUMPHRYS:                    ..well the facts show 
that a lot of them from poorer backgrounds who couldn't otherwise have 
afforded to go to those sorts of schools, clearly they couldn't have afforded 
to go, otherwise they wouldn't have qualified, they might then have stood 
a much better chance of going on because we know the number of people who 
go on from private schools.......

BECKETT:                    .....I think that is a 
perfect example of what has been wrong with the system we have and the 
system we inherited from the Tories.  What the Tories did was to create 
a system whereby a very small number of children got into that very small 
number of schools.....

HUMPHRYS:                    .....children from backgrounds 
that you are concerned about .......

BECKETT:                    .....and therefore that 
tiny number of children got something of the opportunities without the 
overall system changing at all.  What we've done is to use that money to 
create much better opportunity for all of the children, at the earliest 
possible years when you know, your foundation in education is laid, the 
most important years and what we are talking about now is expanding higher 
education to make sure more people have the chance to get in and to make 
sure that the people who are getting qualifications are judged on that 
basis and on their merits as individuals and not just, as too often it 
has been in the past, on what the contacts are, and so on, and what we 
are saying to higher education and to the universities is, yes, you've 
been doing more, and that's great, but we are clearly not doing enough, 
because otherwise we wouldn't see that disparity for people, who I keep 
repeating, have got the same qualifications.

HUMPHRYS:                    But you didn't only get 
rid of the assisted places schemes, a relatively small number of people 
I grant you, but nonetheless people from, children from the worst-off backgrounds, 
you also got rid of grammar schools, you didn't like the idea.....

BECKETT:                    .....there weren't many 
left.

HUMPHRYS:                    .....well, not by the 
time they were finished with...

BECKETT:                    ....and in any case....

HUMPHRYS:                    ....no, but I mean that 
was route that children took from poorer backgrounds to get into universities...

BECKETT:                    .....no, we haven't got 
rid of grammar schools.  And this grammar school thing is part of the assisted 
places approach.  What it is all about is saying, you take a small number 
of children, and you educate them well, because that's all the country 
can afford.  And that was the myth that successive Tory governments sold 
us.  That was never a good idea, because you were actually not doing enough 
for the great bulk of children, but in today's economy, and in the nature 
of the world we will see in the future, where knowledge is power, and it's 
access to knowledge that is important for a country, not just for an individual, 
we have to be doing the best we can to educate everybody, and that's what 
the changes that we have made are about.  We haven't, we've put a position 
in place, where in areas, the few areas where there are still remaining 
grammar schools, it's up to parents to decide, but that's not.......

HUMPHRYS:                    (..interruption..)

BECKETT:                    ...it hasn't been for 
years, a system for most people.

HUMPHRYS:                    Alright, but if you're 
so keen then that so many of them should do what you just described, very 
odd to introduce tuition fees which is a terrible barrier, a terrible burden 
 for them to clear.

BECKETT:                    No, it really isn't.  
A third of people do not pay any tuition fees at all.  They are the people 
from the lowest income households.  Another third pay something towards 
them on a sliding scale.  And it's only the people in the top third of 
households from the point of view of income, who actually pay for tuition 
fees, and if you look at the figures, it isn't true that it's discouraging 
people from applying, the numbers of applications are holding up, the number 
of applications, even from mature students are basically holding up, so 
what we are seeing is more people starting to take advantage of the opening 
up, see, don't forget that there was a cap on places under the Conservatives 
because the resources weren't going in.  The money that is raised through 
tuition fees is going back into higher education to create more opportunity 
for more young people and that is what should be happening.

HUMPHRYS:                    See that MORI Opinion 
Poll in the Mail on Sunday this morning said that two out of three people 
think it's quite wrong to have tuition fees, partly because of what it 
says about our approach to state education.
                        
BECKETT:                    But I think probably one 
of the reasons that people are nervous about tuition fees is because they 
believe they are keeping out large numbers of young people.  That's not 
the evidence and as I say I think if people realised that one third of 
students pay no tuition fees at all and even the maintenance system, the 
system for repayment is now much fairer and it only kicks in when you begin 
term.

HUMPHRYS:                    But they've still got 
to repay it.

BECKETT:                    Well even when I was at 
college John, a lot of people ended university, ended college with debts 
and overdrafts and so on......

HUMPHRYS:                    Ah but that was party 
because... perhaps you went out on the town a great deal...

BECKETT:                    Oh - perish the thought........

HUMPHRYS:                    Who knows what you did 
in your youth.  But I mean nowadays you can't avoid it and if you speak 
to... I was talking the other day to a young woman, twenty three or twenty 
four, who left university with debts, she's got a hell of a job to pay 
it back, living in London, having to pay for accommodation and all the 
rest of it - it is a serious problem.

BECKETT:                    But the system now..... 
well I mean she would have come out and her terms of her loan repayment 
would have been the ones set, I presume, by the previous government.  What 
we've done is to substantially improve that so that people have much easier 
terms to meet, they only have to meet them..........

HUMPHRYS:                    ..... they've still got 
to pay them back......

BECKETT:                    Yes, they do.  But I repeat, 
the choice is there:  You either have a cap on numbers and you say we won't 
admit all the people who can be qualified and earn the right to a place 
in university because we can't provide the money or else you say, 'okay 
we will raise the money, we'll do it as fairly as we possibly can but then 
we'll make sure that that opportunity is opened to a great range of people 
who get the qualifications.

HUMPHRYS:                    Alright, but those are 
things that have been done.  The other reason why all of  this was a bit 
of a mistake is that we're now seeing endless ministers writing in newspapers 
about it all and saying nothing.  I mean you saw the piece perhaps by Gordon 
Brown in the Times yesterday - well it was a string of platitudes if you'll 
forgive me, there wasn't a single course of action there.  John Prescott's 
piece in the Independent on Sunday this morning, hard to see quite what 
he was saying - These are our plans.  What are the plans to do something 
about it?  I mean you talk about universities going out to seek more students, 
well they've been doing that for donkey's years.

BECKETT:                    Well they have been doing 
it to some degree, I wouldn't say for donkey's years.  More recent years, 
they've begun to do it.  I think they're still, I mean the evidence shows 
that they're still not doing it well enough or probably on a big enough 
scale.

HUMPHRYS:                    Right, well impose quotas 
on them then..........

BECKETT:                    And these are things that 
the government will be addressing.  You say, I don't accept your description 
but I accept that Gordon is talking in broad terms about what the goal 
is.  I think right at the beginning you said 'is this just a slogan?'  
No it isn't a slogan.  It's a gaol.  It's an aim of a Labour government 
to create greater opportunity for everybody and not just the privileged 
few.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, now what that implies 
is target something which the government is frightfully keen.  I think 
you've got about six thousand altogether right across the whole of government.......

BECKETT:                    .....we're trying to cut 
that down......

HUMPHRYS:                    ....trying to cut it 
- but here's an extra one for you  then isn't it because if you have a 
goal you must have a target because a goal is never reached if you don't 
have a target. You don't know whether you've reached it or not so you must 
have a target therefore you're going to have to tell the universities to 
impose some sort of quota aren't you if you're serious about it?

BECKETT:                    No, we're not talking 
about quotas......

HUMPHRYS:                    Why not?

BECKETT:                    What we're saying to universities 
is take a look at the range of people who come to you with the right qualifications 
and take a look at who you're actually admitting and see whether, on the 
evidence it looks as if you are getting it right in terms of creating the 
kind of opportunities you should for the kind of youngsters who need to 
have the chance to study at the institutions which will give them training 
for life.  (both speaking at once)  No doubt as we get into the months 
ahead and as we see the results emerging from the present review of spending 
that's coming forward and the programmes for the next two or three years, 
it may well be that there will be more flesh put on those bones but it's 
the bones that matter because it's the goal and the aim that matters and 
that I think is both important for Britain and I think it's something people 
would expect a Labour government to stand for.

HUMPHRYS:                    So a bit more money down 
the line there somewhere to.........?

BECKETT:                    Well we're already putting 
in more resources and we're putting it in precisely to those areas where 
we think we're relieving barriers and removing obstacles and we'll go on 
doing that.

HUMPHRYS:                    The other reason why 
it may have been or seen to be a mistake, certainly a lot of people think 
it was, is that Tony Blair said last year didn't he that the class war 
was all over, finished?  You've reopened it haven't you?

BECKETT:                    No, because opportunity 
for everybody is actually about saying, 'never mind what distinctions people 
had in the past.  Never mind whether there is argument about which classes 
people are in or were in, what matters is that everybody gets the opportunity 
to develop their talents to the full.  Now that's extremely difficult to 
achieve but it's actually very important to do and it's what we're about.

HUMPHRYS:                    You're regarded by a 
large section of the Labour party as good old class warrior, not so much 
of the old - a class warrior.  Do you think the class war is over?

BECKETT:                    I think it should be and 
I think that if we can actually deliver on opportunity for all then it 
will be seen as something that belongs in the past which is where it belongs.

HUMPHRYS:                    I notice John Prescott 
quoted in one of the papers this morning as having said that we should 
get rid of Lords and Ladies for instance in the new House of Lords when 
the reforms feed through ultimately.  Do you think that's a good idea? 
 No more Lords and Ladies and classless people?

BECKETT:                    Well the Royal Commission 
of course did recommend that you break the link between whether or not 
people have a peerage and whether or not they sit in what's now the House 
of Lords.

HUMPHRYS:                    But I mean calling a 
Lord a lady and all that stuff........

BECKETT:                    Well, what I think is 
really important is that we have a sensible second chamber that works well 
and actually adds something of value to parliament and I think that we 
can get that, we're hoping to get it something like on the basis of consensus 
that remains to be seen.

HUMPHRYS:                    Are you happy calling 
people Lords? M'lord and M'Lady and all that stuff?

BECKETT:                    I don't mind what I call 
people.  What matters is what life chances their youngsters have.

HUMPHRYS:                    Okay, final thought then. 
 You've opened up, you say, the class war, this hasn't reopened all these 
divisions and all that but when you look at the sorts of comments that 
have been made about a whole series of different sorts of people, professors 
and business people attacked by Gordon Brown yesterday, we saw the business 
bit in the Times.  John Prescott attacking the lawyers.  Alan Milburn attacking 
the consultants.  All of these are seen now are they as sort of class enemies? 
 Are they seen as forces of conservatism, class enemies........?

BECKETT:                    None of this is about 
attacking people or attacking groups, it's about trying to get everybody 
to focus on the fact that we need greater opportunity for all of our citizens 
particularly all our young citizens, that we aren't providing that yet, 
that there are some obstacles, some barriers to that that we have to remove 
and that it is everybody's job in their various walks of life to address 
that agenda and to try and see what they can do.  One of the things that 
has bedevilled previous governments is that people always said, 'Oh we 
can't do this because it's about money.'  But what we're now saying, what 
we're now focussing on is the fact that - yes, make the money available 
but then you have to see how it's used and what the ultimate goal is, what 
the ultimate direction is, what you expect to get for the investment you're 
putting in and that's what Opportunity for All is really about.

HUMPHRYS:                    Margaret Beckett, thank 
you very much indeed.    
BECKETT:                    Thank you.