BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 18.06.00

Film: PAUL WILENIUS Discovers that plans to modernise the House of Commons may not go far enough to satisfy backbench MPs.



PAUL WILENIUS: It's a bright new morning for a once new Labour MP. The political day starts early even though it only ended a few hours ago. Just time for breakfast in his London flat, before heading straight back to the Commons. His family are at home in his West Midlands constituency, so MP Peter Bradley eats alone. It's a daily routine he finds frustrating. PETER BRADLEY: It's just not a sensible way to run a modern legislature. From about half past six when I finished my last meeting to twenty to midnight when we finished at the Commons I reckon I did about thirty minutes productive labour. Frankly, when you are as exhausted as you can get, doing these kind of hours and particularly when you add in the frustration of wasting time, then of course you're not going to be able to give of your best and that just increases the aggravation and the frustration. WILENIUS: Modernisation of our traditional institutions to create a new Britain has been constantly promised by Tony Blair. But when it comes to the House of Commons, his government has been slow to reform. Now many of his own MPs are calling for far reaching changes to the way it works to show that Labour has not lost its radical edge. TONY BLAIR: Modernisation is not an end in itself, it is for a purpose. WILENIUS: After Tony Blair's 1997 Conference speech many hoped his reforming zeal would extend to the House of Commons. The Labour Government set up a Modernisation Committee to drive through change. So far plans for more family friendly hours and electronic voting have been put on ice. Even though a second debating chamber has been set up and the bizarre ritual of MPs in tops hats has been ended, this doesn't add up to radical reform. BRADLEY: It's a hostile place. It's introverted. All the values here are written in secret codes which are available only to Members of Parliament and only if they've got the time and patience to decipher them. I mean it is bizarrely antiquated and it's almost expressly written in a language that people outside don't understand. WILENIUS: At the Commons the one thing Peter Bradley does understand is how much of his time seems wasted. BRADLEY: I've got no idea what's going on. We've had one vote at 6 o'clock this evening, no indication of when the next vote is going to be and so really I'm trapped. This is the second night running this week that I'm here just kicking my heels. I'm going to find a friendly Whip to see if he knows any better than I do what's going on. WILENIUS: All MPs are at the mercy of the whips, the party business managers. But now many restless Labour backbenchers want the Modernisation Committee end this waiting around. One of the key members of the Committee is the parliamentary leader of all Labour MPs, Clive Soley. They're looking to him to tackle the needlessly long hours. CLIVE SOLEY: We really do have to address this issue of a radical reform of the House of Commons and I think the thing that most upsets people outside about the House of Commons is the sight of it, sitting, as I say, at three o' clock in the morning voting and speaking and they say nobody else would be passing legislation at this time of the morning, when they're tired and supposed to be getting up at eight or nine o' clock to go back into committees the next day. You think this is crazy - why are they doing it? WILENIUS: Mid-evening and MPs think it's crazy too. They're shackled to Westminster while others are packing up to go home. For Peter Bradley radical reform can't come soon enough. BRADLEY: The whips expect the next vote around about ten. They expect it around ten but they don't know that it's going to be at ten, so I still can't go very far from the Palace of Westminster and if I do, I'm going to have to risk sprinting back at the drop of the hat. I'm going to have a bite to eat and then I'm going to risk it, I'm going to go back to my office, try and get a bit more work under my belt. SOLEY: What we need to say is the voting takes place normally at set times so that business of the House comes to an end I would suggest about ten o' clock. I say ten o'clock simply because if you're a Northern MP or from Devon or somewhere you know you'd rather work hard during Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and then go back to your constituency on Friday and work in your constituency. ANN CLYWD: I'd like to see us working a nine to seven day. I came here from the European Parliament where we rarely worked beyond seven o' clock at night, which I think is sensible, it's a reasonable time for people to finish, particularly as most of us come here for first thing in the morning and if we're here until midnight, or sometimes until one o'clock or two o'clock, on some occasions until six o'clock then obviously people are very tired and when they've got committees early in the morning the next day, they can't stay in bed to make up for it. So I think it's not a sensible use of people's time. WILENIUS: At Westminster, the feeling is that Clive Soley's suggestion is hardly "radical reform" .The idea these changes would bring the Commons bang up to date is seen as laughable. CORBETT: If a Modernisation Committee proposes ten o'clock, first of all I wouldn't believe them because there'd be an exception in it, and secondly it is to totally misunderstand what this is about. We run this Parliament as if - and this is the origins of it - most of its members towards the end of July had to get back to their fields and estates to gather in the harvest, then to celebrate it, then to do the Autumn sowing and when all that was done they would come back here in October and start the business of the nation again. Nothing has changed in two centuries to that extent and it's absolute hogwash. WILENIUS: Time is a vital commodity for MPs .They don't want to waste it. But to control Commons hours is to exercise power. The government wants the power to get their business through and the Opposition parties want to be able to exploit or even waste time, forcing late debates to keep Government Ministers and MPs up all night. SIR GEORGE YOUNG: I'm not in the business of keeping the House up all night unnecessarily and it's interesting that some of the people who kept me out of my bed, when we were in government, are now the very people saying you must have reasonable hours. I think the argument is that the opposition has to make sure that the bills get properly debated. WILENIUS: But one former insider - ex Tory MP and Party Whip Michael Brown, says it's all about the Opposition putting political boot in. MICHAEL BROWN: The aim of the game so far as the opposition is concerned is to make sure that there is such a log jam at the end of the annual session of Parliament that the government are forced to drop some of their Bills, no government wants to do that so the opposition by means of keeping the House up all night, getting Ministers tired, getting Labour backbenchers very angry so they have to take two days instead of one day or sit all night, it's a way of ensuring that there is a complete sense of mayhem at the end of the session and the government is then forced to jettison some of its legislation. WILENIUS: Half past nine and Peter Bradley's back in his office catching up. He's waiting around for another vote, a slave to the green screens in every room in the Commons. But if a radical change to these long hours would be controversial, there's another area of Commons modernisation which is even more contentious. In the 1980's, a system of Select Committees was set up to look at and criticise the government. But now many feel they're toothless. They don't have enough power to really take Ministers to task. BRADLEY: "Oops minister's up - that means voting imminent" WILENIUS: Modernisers also want to see radical reform of this system. Successive governments have exerted some control over the Select Committees and their reports, picking who chairs them, and who sits on them. Forcing out those people seen as troublemakers. BROWN: As the Government Whip, the aim is to make sure that you've got your stooges on the committee and what will happen is that the Chairman of the Committee of Selection will advertise on the Whip for a vacancy and you will go up to one or two friendly pals of yours, indicate that they're doing very well, if they want to help out with the government intimate although not specify that perhaps promotion might depend on this, perhaps they might like to go on the Transport Select Committee Now this is all highly irregular and it's all done without fingerprints or anybody getting caught but the reason is because you are part of the government and you want to control, the last thing you want is a bad headline. DIANNE ABBOTT: Government Whips have always tried to interfere with Select Committees but under my government unfortunately it's got completely out of hand. I've on the Treasury Committee for eight years, I was a very assiduous attender. I was, I think, quite a good interviewer at Committee and as one of the most experienced members of the Treasury Select Committee I could have expected to have been re-appointed and even possibly be in with a shout of being Chair and the Whips took me off and they made it clear to me it was because of course Gordon Brown said on no account was I to go back on the Treasury Committee. WILENIUS: Ministers are reluctant to give up any powers. Last month, Leader of the House Margaret Beckett incensed Select Committee chairmen when the government kicked out proposals to change the appointments system. CORBETT: It devolves power to the regions of the United Kingdom and it will not devolve power to the backbenchers of the House of Commons and I simply do not understand it. They've got everything to gain from this not to lose, because any organisation which has got effective scrutiny, I mean half of the people who send us here, is going to be a better government as a result of that, not a worse one. WILENIUS: There's likely to be wide public support for moves to give more powers to these key committees and many Labour MPs were hoping the Government would loosen its grip on appointments to allow greater scrutiny of its work. But it now looks as if it is too much for Ministers to swallow and it will be brushed aside. SOLEY: The chance of getting change in the appointments to Select Committees in the near future I think is very slim, but I certainly wouldn't like to lose the idea. It's a very complex issue and it is frankly a balance between the rights of parliamentarians, but also the recognition that Parliament can't work without parties and parties need to have a say on things like this. I hope we'll revisit it, but frankly I don't think there will be a change in the near future. ABBOTT: The Select Committee system is being fatally weakened by government interference and if this Modernisation Committee won't act it will be a complete travesty and they'll be letting down Parliament and also ordinary people who deserve proper scrutiny of government. WILENIUS: The Millennium Wheel has become a symbol of modernisation, towering over the Houses of Parliament. In politics too what goes around comes around. Margaret Beckett's now under scrutiny by Select Committee chairmen. She faces possible defeat if she doesn't listen. CORBETT: Unless we can talk her round we'll have to plan the next step which well may be a debate on the floor of the House of Commons and we want to involve as many backbench members in that debate as possible. We're deeply serious, we will have what we have proposed or something near it and we shall if this is the way they want to play it, we will do our best to put together an all party majority on the floor of the House in favour of what we have suggested. WILENIUS: Three Labour MPs have already decided to quit at the next election, after only one term. They are bitterly disappointed at the slow pace of modernisation of the Commons. But if the government doesn't come up with more radical reforms soon, then more Labour MPs may decide to leave or go off message. The bell tolls again for Peter Bradley. Only minutes to get to the voting lobbies from his office. Some Labour MPs are now considering running away for good, but senior Labour figures are urging them to stay and fight. CORBETT: It is imperative that all those who want change and it is a majority across all parties, join with us in helping all of us there, backbenchers to achieve that change. I think it is achievable and I want them to stay and help in that battle instead of just packing their bags and saying I'm going off I'm going to do something else. WILENIUS: The day's finally at an end for Peter Bradley. There's also little time left for the government to deliver a new type of politics for Britain's Parliament. If it can't, dispirited Labour MPs may accuse Tony Blair himself of representing the "forces of conservatism".
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.