BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 02.07.00

Film: Paola Buonadonna asks whether new French and German plans for the future of the European Union mean that Britain will be relegated to the European slow lane.



PAOLA BUONADONNA: Every morning the French river police set off from the port of Strasbourg to patrol the Rhine, the border with Germany. French police work closely with their German counterparts but the relationship extends beyond the river. France and Germany have traditionally been the twin engines of the European Union. France takes over the Presidency of the EU just as wholesale institutional reforms are underway which could once again change the course of Europe. For the next six months France is in charge of steering European affairs and is determined to make practical progress towards European integration. Germany has promised its full support. But France's ambitious plans put Britain in an awkward position and could raise questions about Britain's role in Europe shortly before the next General Election. PIERRE MOSCOVICI: The Franco-German motor is on its way. The Franco German couple is back and we are going to defend absolutely common positions during our presidency. KEITH VAZ: I know it suits the purposes of some to believe that there is some kind of thing going on between France and Germany. Frankly this does not exist as far as we are concerned. FRANCIS MAUD: I think we kid ourselves if we think that those arguments are over, that that federalist drive is over - it's as strong as it ever was and they're determined to press ahead with it. BUONADONNA: In the 1980s the Franco-German alliance drove Europe towards the single currency. But when President Mitterrand and Chancellor Kohl stepped down the big vision seemed lost. Now the debate has been re-ignited by the German Foreign Minister who has called for a fully federal Europe. The new leaders, President Chirac and Chancellor Schroeder set out to revive the alliance in the run up to the French Presidency. Last month they agreed that reforms of the EU's institutions are essential if Europe is to regain popularity with voters and function effectively when it's enlarged to nearly 30 countries. They believe young people in Europe want much more than a single market and are determined to agree a new Treaty at the end of the year to pave the way for closer political union. The first move is to dramatically reduce the national veto, making it impossible for one country to block legislation. France and Germany want many more decisions taken by a substantial majority of countries by a qualified majority vote. QMV could be introduced for immigration controls and even some areas of taxation. MAUDE: There should be no further Qualified Majority Voting, no further loss of the veto on EU laws. I think that's a very simple thing for Tony Blair to say which would be very welcome to the British public. He hasn't said that, he's effectively said that he is prepared to give up the veto in a lot of further areas. VAZ: We have always made it clear that we will look at QMV on a case by case basis. We always approach European issues on the basis of what is in Britain's national interest. As you know the previous government, Francis Maude, the current shadow Foreign Secretary signed the Maastricht Treaty, which together with the Single European Act, agreed to QMV 42 times. MOSCOVICI: You know, when you are in a democracy the rule for living together is voting. It's not logical that any decision requires unanimity. This is why we must have another logic, which is to say: the rule is majority, the exception is unanimity. BUONADONNA: But it doesn't stop there. France and Germany have agreed practical plans to allow some countries to push ahead with some decisions. This week President Chirac told the German parliament that a group of pioneer states should be able move forward in Europe. JACQUES CHIRAC: Assemble avec l'Allemagne et la France ils pouriez se constitue dans un group pioneere BUONADONNA: This is known as flexibility or re-inforced co-operation. It was negotiated by the French and German Europe Ministers. CHRISTOPH ZOEPEL: I think there are some areas where it is no problem to have different regulations between some of the member states and others. We have two of them, the Euro and the agreement of border control - in both areas the UK is not participating and I can imagine that we would have more areas in which not all member states will participate. MOSCOVICI: We must decide that a small group of countries, I don't know how much, let's say eight, this is the proposal of our friends from Benelux, can together decide that they will co-operate. I'm sure that everybody in Great Britain is fond of that flexibility too. BUONADONNA: Tony Blair hasn't shown much enthusiasm so far. After meeting Chancellor Schroeder this week the Prime Minister acknowledged the need for some flexibility in decision-making once Europe is enlarged. But he feels that the Franco-German plans for re-inforced co-operation go too far too soon. Tony Blair doesn't want a two-speed Europe because he's determined to be seen at the heart of Europe. But at the last EU summit the French President told Mr Blair that two-speeds already exist and the UK is definitely in the slow lane. HENRI WEBER: We realise that not all 15 member states have the same degree of motivation. So for those that are determined for their country and for their vision of Europe, it is vital to make progress in turning the European Union into a political force and not just an economic area. For this to occur we have to use every opportunity for advancement and it would be the pioneer states or the vanguard as Jacques Delors called it, that will do this. VAZ: We still remain to be convinced of the intellectual arguments in favour of reinforced co-operation. The Prime Minister's view and the Government's view is that we believe in a Europe of nation states. In all the countries being treated equally. We don't accept the need for groups of countries going off in different directions. BUONADONNA: But a group has already emerged that's travelling further faster - the Euro 11. This exclusive club is made up of the eleven countries that joined the single currency. Their finance ministers meet behind closed doors to agree policies for the eurozone. Now France and Germany want to strengthen the role of the Euro 11. And Britain is excluded. MOSCOVICI: It's a material, concrete reinforced co-operation and we want it to work more and more, in a very visible and transparent way. This is why our Minister of Economic and Finance, Mr Fabius will make proposals as soon as the Presidency begins. ZOEPEL: I think that is a most realistic scenario for the reinforced co-operation that this Euro group is going ahead. This group must speak with one voice especially in the field of defending the external value of the Euro. I think that will be the realistic approach of reinforced co-operation in the future. BUONADONNA: Trade is booming within the Eurozone. The eleven countries in the single currency are becoming the driving force in European politics. Greece is to join soon; Denmark will hold a referendum on the Euro in September and Sweden could follow. (Guten Tag Chief Mann, Herr Controller. Bitte Zehen hier sind mein papier.) The British Government is under increasing pressure to make its mind up on the Euro. MOSCOVICI: It's difficult for Britain to be the leader of Europe when it's not in the Euro. And as soon as it's not in the Euro Great Britain cannot stop the others to advance on such matters. ZOEPEL: If Britain will be marginalised Britain should join the eurozone, if Britain will not be marginalised it is not necessary. VAZ: This is not a country that is marginalised in Europe. This is a country that is leading the debate on economic reforms, this is a country that is quite clear on where it stands on the major issues concerning Europe. And we have made our position on the Euro absolutely clear. BUONADONNA: But the next six months will bring another awkward issue for the British Government. Here in Berlin one of the most keenly awaited developments of the French Presidency is the creation of a Charter of Fundamental Rights - an idea first floated by the German Government. But what started as a simple declaration of existing rights now threatens to become something far more problematic for the British Government. France wants the Charter to contain new rights, in areas such as employment and family life. And Germany thinks the Charter should be legally enforceable. VAZ: We want certainty, not confusion. We want to make sure that our citizens understand what they're entitled to expect from such a Charter. What we do not want is a extension on existing rights. MAUDE: The British government pretends that this is only going to be declaratory, it will only declare existing rights - in which case why on earth have it; why on earth do this? BUONADONNA: Critics fear the Charter represents a European constitution in embryo. Britain was taken aback this week when France and Germany called for a formal EU constitution to be agreed by 2004. WEBER: In reality, the charter is the nucleus of the future constitution. We would start by drawing up and voting on the charter and the charter would be the foundation stone of the constitution. MAUDE: This is yet another of the trappings of statehood that is trying to be created in order to make the European Union more of a state, more of a country, less of, the sort of confederation, the co-operative arrangement between nation states that we want to be part of and so that would be quite unacceptable. BUONADONNA: As the French Presidency begins France and Germany appear more united and ambitious than they have been in a long time. And whenever they share a vision they usually get their way. In the face of this the UK has been forging strong bilateral links with Spain and Portugal, and Scandinavian countries. VAZ: We are at the centre of the pack, we are influencing the debate, we are positively engaged. Last year there were eighty-eight bilateral ministerial visits with the Germans and seventy with the French. WEBER: The construction of the European Union cannot be confined to bilateral agreements. It is a collective structure, which means joining in major steps forward. BUONADONNA: The French are determined to have a successful presidency. They want to complete institutional reforms, agree the Charter and make practical progress towards political union. The British say this will not mean the creation of a two speed Europe but if they're wrong the next six months could be the hardest yet for Tony Blair and his Government on Europe.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.