BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 01.10.00

Interview: MARGARET BECKETT MP, Leader of the House of Commons.

Is the Government out of touch with floating voters.



JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well against all the odds the Tories are gathering in Bournemouth for their annual conference, looking and sounding more optimistic than the Labour Party did when it met in Brighton last week. It wasn't meant to be like this, but Labour have been knocked off course a bit by a whole string of unfortunate events. (Conferences usually give parties a bit of a boost, but even though Labour have seen a small improvement in the opinion polls, they're still looking a bit shaky.) So what must they do now?, Margaret Beckett is the leader of the House of Commons and she's in our Derby studio. Good afternoon, Mrs Beckett. MARGARET BECKETT: Hello. HUMPHRYS: I don't expect you to say this morning yes I think the Tories will win, but do you acknowledge at least that the climate has changed a little bit and the Tories are beginning to land a few blows on you and people are beginning to take them rather more seriously than they did. BECKETT: I think that certainly the Tories are making more of an impact but as to whether or not that in the long term will actually follow through is quite another matter because, yes, of course, they are leaping on every passing bandwagon but when you look at the total of what they are saying it simply doesn't add up, either arithmetically or any other way. You know more for pensions, more for health and yet they are planning to cut public spending by sixteen billion pounds. So, I think it's a good thing if it makes people look harder at the Tories because what they are saying is frankly unbelievable. HUMPHRYS: Well you say but it may be that a lot of people will look at it and rather like what they see because the terms of the debate now are much clearer than they were, you are the party that is going to spend, spend a great deal of money. The Tories are the party who are saying we are actually going to cut taxes, we are going to spend a little bit more, not as much as the Labour Party but a bit more but we are going to cut taxes and that may well be the message that Middle England, the people who helped put you in power last time actually want to hear. BECKETT: Well, you are being a little kind to the Tories because yes they are saying they are going to cut taxes, although they have already had to abandon the guarantee they gave, which William Hague said there was no small print, no qualification, no caveat, it was an absolute guarantee, but that was a couple of months ago and he said they'd cut taxes under all circumstances, they are no saying that anymore but yes they are saying they will cut taxes but they are also saying, I heard him saying this morning, there will be more for pensions, there will be more for the Health Service or as much for the Health Service as we are pledged to invest and they won't cut the investment we are making in education and yet, they are going to make all these cuts in public spending and in public investment. So, I repeat, it just doesn't add up and if we talk, let's take just one example of what they are saying about pensions. What they are saying is that the substantial sums of extra money that in a variety of ways had gone into pensioners' pockets under this government they will re-package and add a bit more on top and I think they are simply making the point, this is money they wouldn't have had from a Tory government. HUMPHRYS: But the message nonetheless that is going to get through to many voters is if you want your taxes to be a bit lower, then it's the Tories you ought to vote for. BECKETT: Well maybe, I think the claim, as I say, is that they can cut taxes and they can cut public spending but every time you challenge them on any particular area of spending they say oh, no the cuts weren't for there. It simply doesn't add up. None of it adds up, I mean why should pensioners believe all the pledges that are made when it wasn't under the Tory government that they got all this money that William Hague is going redistribute, he says. It wasn't in fact under the Tory government that we saw the substantial programme of sustained investment in education and health to which this government is pledged if we're fortunate enough to be returned to office. If people want that investment, which is what they have been saying, then clearly they don't want to see it cut back by Tories who are having to cut on their own promises sixteen billion pounds. HUMPHRYS: On the other hand people don't like paying high taxes do they and what the Tories are saying, you could argue this is a very responsible approach, what they are saying is we will spend what we think the country can afford, yes we are going to match you on health, no pledge as you say on education and there's going to be this little bit extra for the pensioners but by and large we are going to keep our spending within the limits that the economy can manage, they regard your spending pledges as positively irresponsible and again that is a message that a lot of people might say yeah, it makes sense. BECKETT: Well the only concrete tax cutting pledge, apart from the general pledge to cut all taxes and cut spending but somehow not hurt anybody, the only specific spending.. tax cutting pledge that I've heard them give lately is the one on fuel tax, where they say they would make some cuts in fuel tax but again, of course, it was Gordon Brown, who a year ago in the budget, cut something like four hundred million pounds in motoring costs and as for the general pledge about cutting taxes, we are already, with the exception of the fuel tax, we are already one of the most lightly taxed nations anywhere in Europe. If you look at all the other taxes, the Tories are trying to latch on to fuel tax because they hope it will give people the impression that they are paying more in taxes than elsewhere in Europe, they are not - overall they are paying less in taxes. HUMPHRYS: But what people will know very well indeed, it's been reconfirmed today, what they will know very well is that they are paying more taxes across the board under the you than they were you came into power. Taxes have gone up in spite of the pledge before you came into power that they wouldn't. BECKETT: No, no, what we said before we came into power is that we would not put up the standard rate or the top rate of income tax and we have not done that.. HUMPHRYS: That isn't just what Tony Blair said, he went way beyond that, you know perfectly well...anyway... BECKETT: Come on John, you know that isn't so. You were one of the people who challenged people like me repeatedly to say what would do you on all these other taxes and refused to give any such promises because we said it would be responsible to do so. HUMPHRYS: Tony Blair said taxes would got up under a Labour Government.. BECKETT: Come on, what we said very clearly was that the rate of income tax wouldn't go up. We did not say anything about the whole range of other issues. But what we did say was that an incoming Labour government would have to turn the economy around, pay back some of that debt, billions of pounds of debt that the Tories left us saddled with and that that meant the first couple of years would be a tough couple of years, because if you remember, with the exception of a bit of extra funding from the Windfall tax, to which they were opposed, we actually stuck to the Tories' spending programmes. So all this stuff about it wouldn't have been here, it wouldn't have been there, if we'd had a Tory government, we implemented in the first two years with some softening at the edges, their spending plans and with regard to issues such as the money that is on pensions, the money that's going into the Health Service, of course it's taking time, it's taking longer than people wanted, it's taking longer than any of us wanted but that's... these are the facts of life, it doesn't take any less time to train a nurse or train a doctor because you've got a new government. It will take time for that investment to come through. HUMPHRYS: But the very simply message is that if you get back into power, you are not saying we will cut taxes, if the Tories get back into power there's a chance that they will. So this is the very simple, shorthand message that the voters may very well take from all this, isn't it and that could be very damaging for you. BECKETT: That's not exactly right, I mean we are... HUMPHRYS: ...you're not promising to cut taxes are you? BECKETT: ...we aren't promising, we aren't saying that we won't be able to, after all, Gordon has already introduced a ten p. starting rate of tax, he's already made the tax system fairer... HUMPHRYS: Ah but they'll look at your record, won't they, and see that you haven't cut taxes in the last three years... BECKETT: Oh ...., John, I would like nothing better than for them to look at our record. They look at our record, they see that when we came to power we were paying forty-seven p. in every pound we raised in Revenue on the cost of the debt that they left us and on the costs of unemployment, and now we're paying seventeen p. That's how we got the room for manoeuvre, to make the investment that we want to make. And of course we are going to look at issues like fuel tax. Look at the whole picture, when we see the figures over the whole year and see if there's anything that can be done, ought to be done, to ease the costs for ordinary motorists. If we can do so, we will, but not at the risk of jeopardising the investment in Education and Health, and Transport, that everybody wants to see. And I think what people will see, there is nothing I'd like better than for them to take the Tories seriously as an Opposition and look seriously at what they're promising, because whichever way you look at it, it simply doesn't add up. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at um, one of the other reasons why it hasn't been a terribly good week for you this past week and that's what happened in Denmark. I mean, that has put paid to any chance of an early referendum on the Euro, and I, I know that the line from everybody is say, oh, it happened in Denmark, it's got nothing to do with us at all, but nobody believes that for two seconds. Of course it's got something to do with us, because it delivered a very clear message from, of what ordinary people think about these issues, so it, it does mean that an early referendum, I stress an early referendum, is not on the cards now, doesn't it? BECKETT: Well, we've er, er, it's always been a question as to when it would be possible to have the referendum because of course the government would have to be satisfied that it was in our economic interest to join the Euro and then put that decision to the British people, and again, you will have on this programme, dozens of times, asked Ministers to speculate about when that time might come, and no-one can, because it does depend on the five economic tests. HUMPHRYS: And that's it is it? That's all it depends on is the five economic tests, because what Denmark very clearly showed is that economic interests were actually on the back-burner there, I mean they were irrelevant in large part because their currency is already attached to the Euro and the Deutsche Mark very firmly, so are you actually seriously saying, that issues of sovereignty, which is what decided the Denmark in, the, the, the referendum in Denmark very very clearly, issues of sovereignty in this country simply don't matter, it's just those five economic tests? BECKETT: No, of course they matter... HUMPHRYS: ...Ah BECKETT: ...but what we have said, and we've said it quite consistently and we stand by it, is that while we've considered very carefully these issues of sovereignty and all of those things, we think on balance, that the, the balance of the argument is that it is in Britain's interest to join, provided that it is not damaging to us economically, and of course we would only recommend a referendum to say yes to going into the Euro at a time and in circumstances where we believed that it was clear that this was in Britain's national interest. Surely that's what a British government ought to be doing, saying we'll decided on the basis of Britain's national interest, not some ideological shibboleth or some artificial time-scale. I mean the Tories aren't saying they'd never take us into the Euro, they just say, not for the next five years. HUMPHRYS: So the future of the pound's an ideological shibboleth is it? I mean, what, what Gordon Brown said, um last September... BECKETT: ...no, the ideological shibboleth is the, er at least, this is how I would describe it, is the artificial timeline, the saying, not for the next Parliament, not for five years, they aren't saying never. HUMPHRYS: Mmm. But as far as er, well let's deal with ideological shibboleth's of all sorts then in that case, ideology and sovereignty and these matters, you said, yeah, of course it matters a bit. Gordon Brown seems to think that it doesn't matter at all. He said, there are no, and I'm quoting from what he said September of last year, there are no political or constitutional objections. None. Now it's extraordinary isn't it, particularly bearing in mind the, the way people of, in Denmark voted on those precise issues. BECKETT: Well, people in Denmark made a decision for Denmark on the basis of what they felt about the issue. And of course as you will have noticed, their interest rates have had to go up already, so that may not be a cost-free decision, but it's a decision that they were free to make, and they have made. The British people will be free to make that decision, at least they will if they have a Labour government. The Tories are showing no sign of giving them the opportunity to make that decision, even in a forthcoming parliament, but we would put that decision to the British people and then they will make their own judgement as to where Britain's interest lies. HUMPHRYS: But what every single opinion poll that has ever been taken seems to show us, certainly over the last several years, and it's getting much much worse now if we are to believe the polls, is that people don't want the Euro, and the reason they don't want the Euro is that they don't want to get rid of the pound, they don't want to get rid of our sovereignty, they don't want our interest rates to be dictated by foreigners as they would see it. Now that is a real grass roots feeling, isn't it? You must come across it every day on the doorstep yourself - and yet, that is the area where the Tories are 'in touch' with people. This is going to damage you, isn't it? BECKETT: Well, er, you say, I do come across it, you're quite right, I do. And very often I come across it from people who voted in 1975 that we ought to stay in the European Community, and I gently point out to them that that was the basic decision that they made. And it's no good the Tories pretending that in some way there's a cost-free alternative and that the issue of our membership of Europe wouldn't arise if we decided never to join Euro... HUMPHRYS: ...we're not talking about membership of Europe, are we, I mean, that's, that's BECKETT: ...well, er, um, er, you know... HUMPHRYS: ...a red herring isn't it? BECKETT: Well, no it's not a red herring and it is an issue people will have to take into account but I repeat, I repeat... HUMPHRYS: ...what, membership, membership of Europe? BECKETT: ...it's an, it's an important issue. It is an important issue, it's an issue where people have strong feelings, the case is there to be made and it will have to be made, but ultimately the British people will choose and will decide, as they've done before, as they will again. HUMPHRYS: But I mean, you're not suggesting that any decision we might or might not take on the Euro would affect our membership of the European Union are you? BECKETT: I think it most certainly could, and er, you know... HUMPHRYS: ..Really?... BECKETT: ... oh, don't don't say that in that astonished voice... HUMPHRYS: ...well, I'm surprised because I haven't heard anybody suggest that before... BECKETT: ...oh, come on, you must have. HUMPHRYS: ...well I've obviously not been looking in the right areas... BECKETT: ... People like Ted Heath will say it at the drop of hat. HUMPHRYS: Well, you're, you're lining yourself up with Ted Heath now, ha, ha, interesting position for a Labour Minister to take. HUMPHRYS: Well, you're lining yourself up with Ted Heath now is it, ha, ha. Interesting position for a Labour minister to take. BECKETT: There are, there are circumstances in which there is cross-party agreement on these things. There are certain par..., circumstances in which there is disagreement. I simply say to you that anybody who looks at the issues knows perfectly well that if we were to say that we would never join the Euro as a matter of sovereignty, and that our being in the Euro and economic and monetary union was inconsistent with the future direction of British policy that would raise all kinds of questions. But these are matters to be aired and to be discussed when we get to the stage where it's thought that Britain's passed the economic test (INTERRUPTION). The issues of principle are there, the issues of Britain's national interest are there, and of course it's for the people to choose. HUMPHRYS: Well, in that case Robin Cook was dead right in your view wasn't he, when he said that our membership of the Euro was inevitable, or at least that was the view. I mean if our membership of the European Union ultimately rests upon our joining the Euro then clearly these are very deep waters indeed. BECKETT: Well, they've always been very deep waters, and the issue of where our national interest lies, of whether of not if there's a successful Europe at what point we would be in a position to join it. These are very important issues, and they're not easy issues because our two economies have not always worked in parallel. They're getting a little nearer together but there's still quite a way to go before any government could say to the British people: here is the choice of the national interest for you to make. HUMPHRYS But let's be quite clear then. When, if we get this referendum the message from the government - if you're in power at the time will be, if you vote against the Euro you are jeopardising our position in the European Union. That's the message is it? BECKETT: Well, different people will put the case in their own way. I personally take the view that it could well, if we were to say that we would never join the Euro and if the Euro were continuing, were a success, if there were no economic barriers - you see people understand that it would be, could be a serious economic problem for Britain to join the Euro in present circumstances, people accept that, but if it was clear that there was no barrier other than one of a routed decision not to accept that this is a structure that goes alongside the single market introduced by Margaret Thatcher, a natural consequence of it, many people would argue. And if people could see that there was actually a serious, a potential serious, quite serious harm being done to Britain's economic interests then that would be the balance of the decision that they would have to take, and at some point may well have to. HUMPHRYS: Okay. And final couple of minutes just talk about another problem facing you. That is how you are failing to get your legislation, or going to fail to get legislation through. You've already lost a very important bill, the Criminal Justice bill, restricting the right to some jury trials, because of what happened in the Lords. It looks pretty bad for you doesn't it, when you can't get important laws through, especially with a majority like you've got? BECKETT: Well, we haven't got a majority in the House of Lords. We haven't even got as many Labour peers as Tory peers in the House of Lords, and so, you know, we always - Labour governments, always have a problem in the Lords, but before... HUMPHRYS: You've reformed them of course. BECKETT: No. We've completed stage one of a reform. They're better than they were but there's still some distance to go, and as I say we haven't, despite all the rubbish that the Tories keep chanting about Tony's cronies, they have more peers in the Lords than we do, so they can win votes in the Lords, particularly if others line up with them, and they choose to do so. But you know, all this stuff about, oh, unprecedentedly heavy legislative programme, never been known - we've got in total, and we're including now emergency legislation which they said they wanted, and which they said they would back, and they wouldn't use against our programme, we've got a total of something just over forty bills in this year's programme as a whole. Under Margaret Thatcher some years they had over fifty, over sixty. In their first year of office they had seventy-one bills, so yes, forty-ish is a substantial programme. It is absolutely average for this stage of a parliament, and indeed it's a lot less than Tory governments have sometimes put through without a whimper from the House of Lords. HUMPHRYS: Margaret Beckett, thank you very much indeed.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.