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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well against all the odds
the Tories are gathering in Bournemouth for their annual conference, looking
and sounding more optimistic than the Labour Party did when it met in Brighton
last week. It wasn't meant to be like this, but Labour have been knocked
off course a bit by a whole string of unfortunate events. (Conferences
usually give parties a bit of a boost, but even though Labour have seen
a small improvement in the opinion polls, they're still looking a bit
shaky.) So what must they do now?, Margaret Beckett is the leader of the
House of Commons and she's in our Derby studio.
Good afternoon, Mrs Beckett.
MARGARET BECKETT: Hello.
HUMPHRYS: I don't expect you to
say this morning yes I think the Tories will win, but do you acknowledge
at least that the climate has changed a little bit and the Tories are beginning
to land a few blows on you and people are beginning to take them rather
more seriously than they did.
BECKETT: I think that certainly
the Tories are making more of an impact but as to whether or not that in
the long term will actually follow through is quite another matter because,
yes, of course, they are leaping on every passing bandwagon but when you
look at the total of what they are saying it simply doesn't add up, either
arithmetically or any other way. You know more for pensions, more for
health and yet they are planning to cut public spending by sixteen billion
pounds. So, I think it's a good thing if it makes people look harder at
the Tories because what they are saying is frankly unbelievable.
HUMPHRYS: Well you say but it may
be that a lot of people will look at it and rather like what they see because
the terms of the debate now are much clearer than they were, you are the
party that is going to spend, spend a great deal of money. The Tories are
the party who are saying we are actually going to cut taxes, we are going
to spend a little bit more, not as much as the Labour Party but a bit more
but we are going to cut taxes and that may well be the message that Middle
England, the people who helped put you in power last time actually want
to hear.
BECKETT: Well, you are being a
little kind to the Tories because yes they are saying they are going to
cut taxes, although they have already had to abandon the guarantee they
gave, which William Hague said there was no small print, no qualification,
no caveat, it was an absolute guarantee, but that was a couple of months
ago and he said they'd cut taxes under all circumstances, they are no saying
that anymore but yes they are saying they will cut taxes but they are also
saying, I heard him saying this morning, there will be more for pensions,
there will be more for the Health Service or as much for the Health Service
as we are pledged to invest and they won't cut the investment we are making
in education and yet, they are going to make all these cuts in public spending
and in public investment. So, I repeat, it just doesn't add up and if we
talk, let's take just one example of what they are saying about pensions.
What they are saying is that the substantial sums of extra money that
in a variety of ways had gone into pensioners' pockets under this government
they will re-package and add a bit more on top and I think they are simply
making the point, this is money they wouldn't have had from a Tory government.
HUMPHRYS: But the message nonetheless
that is going to get through to many voters is if you want your taxes to
be a bit lower, then it's the Tories you ought to vote for.
BECKETT: Well maybe, I think the
claim, as I say, is that they can cut taxes and they can cut public spending
but every time you challenge them on any particular area of spending they
say oh, no the cuts weren't for there. It simply doesn't add up. None of
it adds up, I mean why should pensioners believe all the pledges that are
made when it wasn't under the Tory government that they got all this money
that William Hague is going redistribute, he says. It wasn't in fact under
the Tory government that we saw the substantial programme of sustained
investment in education and health to which this government is pledged
if we're fortunate enough to be returned to office. If people want that
investment, which is what they have been saying, then clearly they don't
want to see it cut back by Tories who are having to cut on their own promises
sixteen billion pounds.
HUMPHRYS: On the other hand people
don't like paying high taxes do they and what the Tories are saying, you
could argue this is a very responsible approach, what they are saying is
we will spend what we think the country can afford, yes we are going to
match you on health, no pledge as you say on education and there's going
to be this little bit extra for the pensioners but by and large we are
going to keep our spending within the limits that the economy can manage,
they regard your spending pledges as positively irresponsible and again
that is a message that a lot of people might say yeah, it makes sense.
BECKETT: Well the only concrete
tax cutting pledge, apart from the general pledge to cut all taxes and
cut spending but somehow not hurt anybody, the only specific spending..
tax cutting pledge that I've heard them give lately is the one on fuel
tax, where they say they would make some cuts in fuel tax but again, of
course, it was Gordon Brown, who a year ago in the budget, cut something
like four hundred million pounds in motoring costs and as for the general
pledge about cutting taxes, we are already, with the exception of the fuel
tax, we are already one of the most lightly taxed nations anywhere in Europe.
If you look at all the other taxes, the Tories are trying to latch on
to fuel tax because they hope it will give people the impression that they
are paying more in taxes than elsewhere in Europe, they are not - overall
they are paying less in taxes.
HUMPHRYS: But what people will
know very well indeed, it's been reconfirmed today, what they will know
very well is that they are paying more taxes across the board under the
you than they were you came into power. Taxes have gone up in spite of
the pledge before you came into power that they wouldn't.
BECKETT: No, no, what we said before
we came into power is that we would not put up the standard rate or the
top rate of income tax and we have not done that..
HUMPHRYS: That isn't just what
Tony Blair said, he went way beyond that, you know perfectly well...anyway...
BECKETT: Come on John, you know
that isn't so. You were one of the people who challenged people like me
repeatedly to say what would do you on all these other taxes and refused
to give any such promises because we said it would be responsible to do
so.
HUMPHRYS: Tony Blair said taxes
would got up under a Labour Government..
BECKETT: Come on, what we said
very clearly was that the rate of income tax wouldn't go up. We did not
say anything about the whole range of other issues. But what we did say
was that an incoming Labour government would have to turn the economy around,
pay back some of that debt, billions of pounds of debt that the Tories
left us saddled with and that that meant the first couple of years would
be a tough couple of years, because if you remember, with the exception
of a bit of extra funding from the Windfall tax, to which they were opposed,
we actually stuck to the Tories' spending programmes. So all this stuff
about it wouldn't have been here, it wouldn't have been there, if we'd
had a Tory government, we implemented in the first two years with some
softening at the edges, their spending plans and with regard to issues
such as the money that is on pensions, the money that's going into the
Health Service, of course it's taking time, it's taking longer than people
wanted, it's taking longer than any of us wanted but that's... these are
the facts of life, it doesn't take any less time to train a nurse or train
a doctor because you've got a new government. It will take time for that
investment to come through.
HUMPHRYS: But the very simply message
is that if you get back into power, you are not saying we will cut taxes,
if the Tories get back into power there's a chance that they will. So
this is the very simple, shorthand message that the voters may very well
take from all this, isn't it and that could be very damaging for you.
BECKETT: That's not exactly right,
I mean we are...
HUMPHRYS: ...you're not promising
to cut taxes are you?
BECKETT: ...we aren't promising,
we aren't saying that we won't be able to, after all, Gordon has already
introduced a ten p. starting rate of tax, he's already made the tax system
fairer...
HUMPHRYS: Ah but they'll look at
your record, won't they, and see that you haven't cut taxes in the last
three years...
BECKETT: Oh ...., John, I would
like nothing better than for them to look at our record. They look at
our record, they see that when we came to power we were paying forty-seven
p. in every pound we raised in Revenue on the cost of the debt that they
left us and on the costs of unemployment, and now we're paying seventeen
p. That's how we got the room for manoeuvre, to make the investment that
we want to make. And of course we are going to look at issues like fuel
tax. Look at the whole picture, when we see the figures over the whole
year and see if there's anything that can be done, ought to be done, to
ease the costs for ordinary motorists. If we can do so, we will, but not
at the risk of jeopardising the investment in Education and Health, and
Transport, that everybody wants to see. And I think what people will see,
there is nothing I'd like better than for them to take the Tories seriously
as an Opposition and look seriously at what they're promising, because
whichever way you look at it, it simply doesn't add up.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at um, one
of the other reasons why it hasn't been a terribly good week for you this
past week and that's what happened in Denmark. I mean, that has put paid
to any chance of an early referendum on the Euro, and I, I know that the
line from everybody is say, oh, it happened in Denmark, it's got nothing
to do with us at all, but nobody believes that for two seconds. Of course
it's got something to do with us, because it delivered a very clear message
from, of what ordinary people think about these issues, so it, it does
mean that an early referendum, I stress an early referendum, is not on
the cards now, doesn't it?
BECKETT: Well, we've er, er, it's
always been a question as to when it would be possible to have the referendum
because of course the government would have to be satisfied that it was
in our economic interest to join the Euro and then put that decision to
the British people, and again, you will have on this programme, dozens
of times, asked Ministers to speculate about when that time might come,
and no-one can, because it does depend on the five economic tests.
HUMPHRYS: And that's it is it?
That's all it depends on is the five economic tests, because what Denmark
very clearly showed is that economic interests were actually on the back-burner
there, I mean they were irrelevant in large part because their currency
is already attached to the Euro and the Deutsche Mark very firmly, so are
you actually seriously saying, that issues of sovereignty, which is what
decided the Denmark in, the, the, the referendum in Denmark very very clearly,
issues of sovereignty in this country simply don't matter, it's just those
five economic tests?
BECKETT: No, of course they matter...
HUMPHRYS: ...Ah
BECKETT: ...but what we have said,
and we've said it quite consistently and we stand by it, is that while
we've considered very carefully these issues of sovereignty and all of
those things, we think on balance, that the, the balance of the argument
is that it is in Britain's interest to join, provided that it is not damaging
to us economically, and of course we would only recommend a referendum
to say yes to going into the Euro at a time and in circumstances where
we believed that it was clear that this was in Britain's national interest.
Surely that's what a British government ought to be doing, saying we'll
decided on the basis of Britain's national interest, not some ideological
shibboleth or some artificial time-scale. I mean the Tories aren't saying
they'd never take us into the Euro, they just say, not for the next five
years.
HUMPHRYS: So the future of the
pound's an ideological shibboleth is it? I mean, what, what Gordon Brown
said, um last September...
BECKETT: ...no, the ideological
shibboleth is the, er at least, this is how I would describe it, is the
artificial timeline, the saying, not for the next Parliament, not for five
years, they aren't saying never.
HUMPHRYS: Mmm. But as far as er,
well let's deal with ideological shibboleth's of all sorts then in that
case, ideology and sovereignty and these matters, you said, yeah, of course
it matters a bit. Gordon Brown seems to think that it doesn't matter at
all. He said, there are no, and I'm quoting from what he said September
of last year, there are no political or constitutional objections. None.
Now it's extraordinary isn't it, particularly bearing in mind the, the
way people of, in Denmark voted on those precise issues.
BECKETT: Well, people in Denmark
made a decision for Denmark on the basis of what they felt about the issue.
And of course as you will have noticed, their interest rates have had
to go up already, so that may not be a cost-free decision, but it's a decision
that they were free to make, and they have made. The British people will
be free to make that decision, at least they will if they have a Labour
government. The Tories are showing no sign of giving them the opportunity
to make that decision, even in a forthcoming parliament, but we would put
that decision to the British people and then they will make their own judgement
as to where Britain's interest lies.
HUMPHRYS: But what every single
opinion poll that has ever been taken seems to show us, certainly over
the last several years, and it's getting much much worse now if we are
to believe the polls, is that people don't want the Euro, and the reason
they don't want the Euro is that they don't want to get rid of the pound,
they don't want to get rid of our sovereignty, they don't want our interest
rates to be dictated by foreigners as they would see it. Now that is a
real grass roots feeling, isn't it? You must come across it every day
on the doorstep yourself - and yet, that is the area where the Tories are
'in touch' with people. This is going to damage you, isn't it?
BECKETT: Well, er, you say, I do
come across it, you're quite right, I do. And very often I come across
it from people who voted in 1975 that we ought to stay in the European
Community, and I gently point out to them that that was the basic decision
that they made. And it's no good the Tories pretending that in some way
there's a cost-free alternative and that the issue of our membership of
Europe wouldn't arise if we decided never to join Euro...
HUMPHRYS: ...we're not talking
about membership of Europe, are we, I mean, that's, that's
BECKETT: ...well, er, um, er, you
know...
HUMPHRYS: ...a red herring isn't
it?
BECKETT: Well, no it's not a red
herring and it is an issue people will have to take into account but I
repeat, I repeat...
HUMPHRYS: ...what, membership,
membership of Europe?
BECKETT: ...it's an, it's an important
issue. It is an important issue, it's an issue where people have strong
feelings, the case is there to be made and it will have to be made, but
ultimately the British people will choose and will decide, as they've done
before, as they will again.
HUMPHRYS: But I mean, you're not
suggesting that any decision we might or might not take on the Euro would
affect our membership of the European Union are you?
BECKETT: I think it most certainly
could, and er, you know...
HUMPHRYS: ..Really?...
BECKETT: ... oh, don't don't say
that in that astonished voice...
HUMPHRYS: ...well, I'm surprised
because I haven't heard anybody suggest that before...
BECKETT: ...oh, come on, you must
have.
HUMPHRYS: ...well I've obviously
not been looking in the right areas...
BECKETT: ... People like Ted Heath
will say it at the drop of hat.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you're, you're
lining yourself up with Ted Heath now, ha, ha, interesting position for
a Labour Minister to take.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you're lining yourself
up with Ted Heath now is it, ha, ha. Interesting position for a Labour
minister to take.
BECKETT: There are, there are circumstances
in which there is cross-party agreement on these things. There are certain
par..., circumstances in which there is disagreement. I simply say to
you that anybody who looks at the issues knows perfectly well that if we
were to say that we would never join the Euro as a matter of sovereignty,
and that our being in the Euro and economic and monetary union was inconsistent
with the future direction of British policy that would raise all kinds
of questions. But these are matters to be aired and to be discussed when
we get to the stage where it's thought that Britain's passed the economic
test (INTERRUPTION). The issues of principle are there, the issues of
Britain's national interest are there, and of course it's for the people
to choose.
HUMPHRYS: Well, in that case Robin
Cook was dead right in your view wasn't he, when he said that our membership
of the Euro was inevitable, or at least that was the view. I mean if our
membership of the European Union ultimately rests upon our joining the
Euro then clearly these are very deep waters indeed.
BECKETT: Well, they've always been
very deep waters, and the issue of where our national interest lies, of
whether of not if there's a successful Europe at what point we would be
in a position to join it. These are very important issues, and they're
not easy issues because our two economies have not always worked in parallel.
They're getting a little nearer together but there's still quite a way
to go before any government could say to the British people: here is the
choice of the national interest for you to make.
HUMPHRYS But let's be quite clear
then. When, if we get this referendum the message from the government
- if you're in power at the time will be, if you vote against the Euro
you are jeopardising our position in the European Union. That's the message
is it?
BECKETT: Well, different people
will put the case in their own way. I personally take the view that it
could well, if we were to say that we would never join the Euro and if
the Euro were continuing, were a success, if there were no economic barriers
- you see people understand that it would be, could be a serious economic
problem for Britain to join the Euro in present circumstances, people accept
that, but if it was clear that there was no barrier other than one of a
routed decision not to accept that this is a structure that goes alongside
the single market introduced by Margaret Thatcher, a natural consequence
of it, many people would argue. And if people could see that there was
actually a serious, a potential serious, quite serious harm being done
to Britain's economic interests then that would be the balance of the decision
that they would have to take, and at some point may well have to.
HUMPHRYS: Okay. And final couple
of minutes just talk about another problem facing you. That is how you
are failing to get your legislation, or going to fail to get legislation
through. You've already lost a very important bill, the Criminal Justice
bill, restricting the right to some jury trials, because of what happened
in the Lords. It looks pretty bad for you doesn't it, when you can't get
important laws through, especially with a majority like you've got?
BECKETT: Well, we haven't got a
majority in the House of Lords. We haven't even got as many Labour peers
as Tory peers in the House of Lords, and so, you know, we always - Labour
governments, always have a problem in the Lords, but before...
HUMPHRYS: You've reformed them
of course.
BECKETT: No. We've completed stage
one of a reform. They're better than they were but there's still some
distance to go, and as I say we haven't, despite all the rubbish that the
Tories keep chanting about Tony's cronies, they have more peers in the
Lords than we do, so they can win votes in the Lords, particularly if others
line up with them, and they choose to do so. But you know, all this stuff
about, oh, unprecedentedly heavy legislative programme, never been known
- we've got in total, and we're including now emergency legislation which
they said they wanted, and which they said they would back, and they wouldn't
use against our programme, we've got a total of something just over forty
bills in this year's programme as a whole. Under Margaret Thatcher some
years they had over fifty, over sixty. In their first year of office
they had seventy-one bills, so yes, forty-ish is a substantial programme.
It is absolutely average for this stage of a parliament, and indeed it's
a lot less than Tory governments have sometimes put through without a whimper
from the House of Lords.
HUMPHRYS: Margaret Beckett, thank
you very much indeed.
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