BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 08.10.00

Film: Terry Dignan discovers disquiet amongst Black and Asian Labour politicians about the failure to achieve more ethnic minority MPs.



TERRY DIGNAN: It's a big night at London's Hilton Hotel. More than six hundred guests are arriving for a dinner to celebrate the achievements of Britain's ethnic minorities. Awards are to be presented to those who've had an outstanding year in their chosen career or profession. It's further evidence that many blacks and Asians are breaking the glass ceiling. But in politics it's a different story. If tonight's dinner had been to celebrate the success of Britain's ethnic minorities in politics, the organisers might have chosen a much smaller venue. For while there are many black and Asian success stories in the arts, entertainment, business, the professions, the public sector, in politics, it seems, the barriers have still to come down. The Labour Party argues, in truth, that it's record is much superior to that of the other main parties. Yet the fact remains that many black and Asian members of the Labour Party feel deeply let down. Tonight's hosts, the Asian Marketing Group, have invited big name employers who've promised ethnic minorities equal treatment. If party leaders followed this policy, there'd be forty non-white Members of Parliament. In fact, there are less than a dozen and although they represent Labour, the party's record receives faint praise. DIANE ABBOTT: We have a much better record than the other parties, but that's nothing to boast about. I was elected thirteen years ago. Progress since then has been pitifully slow. TREVOR PHILLIPS: There is a tendency to say, 'Well, if we wait a bit longer, if people work a bit harder, it will happen". But the truth of the matter is for two generations, black and Asian people have been coming forward but not being selected. VALERIE VAZ I think we should change a system if it isn't working, and we know it isn't working now so we have to look at different ways. DIGNAN: Our society is multiracial but you wouldn't think so from looking at our three main parties. In the House of Commons, out of six hundred and fifty-nine MPs only nine - all Labour - are from ethnic minority communities. In Scotland's new parliament not one of its a hundred and twenty-nine members are black or Asian. There are none in the sixty-member Welsh assembly. There are only two, both Labour, in the twenty-five strong Greater London Assembly. In the European Parliament there are only four - two Labour and two Conservative - among the eighty-four members from England, Scotland and Wales. So out of nearly a thousand seats, only fifteen are held by ethnic minority representatives. Of these thirteen are Labour and two Conservative. The Liberal Democrats have none. Valerie Vaz has been trying for fourteen years to become a Labour MP. Persuading members of local constituency parties to select her for a winnable seat has so far proved impossible. In her attempts to get to Westminster she's often competing against white candidates who already wield considerable local influence. Few blacks and Asians have this kind of clout. VAZ: You may come across, what's known as the favoured son, and they will have links with the council, and there may be sort of like deals done, which will favour them, and people will feel they owe them certain things to support them, rather than support someone from the outside. DIGNAN: Trevor Phillips has at least got elected to one of the new devolved bodies, the Greater London Assembly, which is currently holding a black history exhibition. He says constituency activists - who are mainly white - look for a Parliamentary candidate who has a record of campaigning for the party. They ignore the kind of campaigning experience gained by blacks and Asians. PHILLIPS: For black and Asian people who've been active in campaigns which have nothing to do with party politics, but may be immigration or something like that, they don't quite have the credentials that are recognised by the Labour Party at the moment. Now that's a problem, and it's our problem. DIGNAN: In Tower Hamlets a board is elected to decide how a local estate should be regenerated. This part of London's inner city has a large ethnic minority presence in the local Labour Party. They wanted a black or Asian candidate at the last election. They chose Oona King who says she would have had little chance in a constituency party dominated by whites. OONA KING: Overwhelmingly when there are black candidates there, they will vote for the white candidate again and again and again. That's because overwhelmingly you know, on the whole, the majority of Labour party members in most of the seats are white and often you vote with your friends or who you're familiar with. It doesn't mean you're racist. But it does mean that there can be institutional racism, that prevents one group from getting elected. DIGNAN: All but one of Britain's non-white MPs won their seats in multiracial areas like this one. Is the refusal of white members of the Labour Party to select black candidates in other areas more than just institutional racism? SHAMIT SAAGAR: I think what is taking place in the Labour Party like other parties, is a form of imputed racism. That is to say, selectors who are mainly white, are taking the view that whilst they are not racist, and do not discriminate against black and Asian candidates, their fear is - entirely unfounded by the way - that voters will discriminate on that basis, and for those reasons, selectors play safe and shy away from adopting black and Asian candidates, particularly in marginal seats. VAZ: Sometimes it is used as a factor. There are - I mean it's like everything. When you look at a candidate, you look at what their characteristics are and, and it has been used as a factor. DIGNAN: Race has been used as an argument against selecting you? VAZ: It has been mentioned yes. DIGNAN: It's hardly surprising that ambitious black and Asian members of the Labour Party should gravitate to inner city seats like this one. Understandably they feel they've a better chance of being selected for these constituencies. Some fear though this could lead to the ghettoisation of British politics with white MPs representing mainly white areas and black and Asian MPs representing mainly ethnic minority areas. PHILLIPS: I think people have got to be realistic. First of all, seats like Tottenham, say, want a black MP. But you know, white people in Tottenham felt like they wanted a black MP. They had a good experience with Bernie Grant, and I think they'll have an excellent one with David Lammy. Secondly, if someone from an ethnic minority background goes for a seat like Southall or Perry Barr, or indeed Tottenham, there is no worry in anybody's mind that what they're going to do is lose votes because of their colour. DR SAAGAR: One has fostered a mentality that black and Asian candidates are only suitable, are only plausible and only legitimate in such inner city areas containing large numbers of minority voters. Where does that then leave the aspiring black or Asian candidate who seeks to represent constituencies that are predominantly white in terms of their social make-up? If we don't tackle this question, if the Labour Party doesn't address it, ultimately we are in a sense going down the road of assuming that same ethnicity candidates are by definition a good thing. That whites will be represented by whites and non whites by non whites. And there can be very few people in modern multi cultural Britain, who'd actually think that's a desirable end in itself. DIGNAN: As the electorate becomes ethnically more diverse, an iron law of politics becomes clearer. Britain's ethnic minorities vote overwhelmingly Labour. In 1979 eighty-six per cent supported the party, eight per cent the Conservatives and six per cent the Liberal Democrats and others. Nearly twenty years later, according to research, little had changed with eighty-five per cent backing Labour, eleven per cent the Conservatives and four per cent the Liberal Democrats and others. Increasingly, there are demands on Labour to repay this loyalty by selecting more ethnic minority candidates for winnable seats. DR SAAGAR: On the one hand the Labour party has profited enormously in the course of a quarter century, from effectively owning the lion share of the ethnic minority vote. On the other hand, some in the black and Asian community argue what precisely has been the dividend, the pay off, in response to that close relationship between minority voters and the Labour party. DIGNAN: The employers who attended last Tuesday's dinner say they want more job applicants from ethnic minority communities. Labour says it wants the same. Yet when they do put their names forward, many fail to get selected because, it's argued, not enough training is given to them on how to perform effectively when they are called for interview by party officials. PHILLIPS: What we know from business and from other organisations is that when you go through that rather rigorous, that demanding selection procedure you do have to be properly prepared for it. You do have to understand the culture of that kind of selection. And I think that to some extent, people who come up from the black and ethnic minority communities, often aren't quite as prepared as other kind of candidates are. KING: Well training and advice is always very helpful, but it's not going to get you the votes if people have got a favoured candidate who has been around for twenty odd years. VAZ: We've sort of been out-trained really. We've done as much training as we possibly can and we're there ready as good candidates and good MP material. So I think for some people they feel that we're there. We don't need any more training. DIGNAN: London like other cities has a growing ethnic minority population but few ethnic minority MPs. One answer would be to set targets for selecting black and Asian candidates. Yet there's disagreement over this suggestion, too. PHILLIPS: For example, in London, if we were to reflect the population of London, or the population that votes labour, we would find that something like forty, forty-five per cent of labour MPs should be black or Asian or Chinese. And that would mean, twenty to twenty five. The point of setting a target is that party members know that's where we're going. And when they come to cast their votes, they will have in the back of their mind, that we've got to reach this target. KING: You can have as many targets as you want. If you don't have a system that is capable of delivering that, it really doesn't mean anything. It's just hot air. So, although I would say yes, it's important that people know what we're aiming for, common sense should tell you that. You know I don't think it will make that much difference. DIGNAN: At the offices of Operation Black Vote there's growing frustration at what is seen as Labour's timidity. Campaigners here are trying to persuade all the parties to select more ethnic minority candidates for winnable seats. They believe Labour could take the lead by discriminating, for a limited period only, in favour of blacks. WOOLLEY: We shouldn't be afraid to discuss a time-limited positive discrimination. I've been to America and I've seen black judges, black mayors, black congressmen, playing a role at the highest level. Why? because the political will was there, and they used positive discrimination to ensure that their democracy reflected the people that it served. So let's be bold and let's be brave. DIGNAN: Black activists at Labour conferences in the eighties argued for positive discrimination with a demand for black-only shortlists to select candidates. ABBOTT: All-white parties in multiracial constituencies - that's apartheid. DIGNAN: The party rejected the idea yet later imposed all women shortlists. ABBOTT: I think the party has to bite the bullet and do what we were demanding fourteen, fifteen years ago and go for all black shortlists. It is all women shortlists that improved sharply the numbers of women, and you're gonna need that to put up the numbers of black and Asian candidates. You have to remember that New Labour inherited a policy for women's shortlists, as kind of one of the left wing policies of the eighties which people like me were successful in pushing. When we got knocked back by the industrial tribunal, which deemed the shortlists illegal, leadership did nothing about it. Now belatedly, they're talking about changing the law to make all women shortlists legal and that opens the door for all black shortlists as well. KING: I think the party has to consider black only short-lists. My gut instinct is that I don't like them. My gut instinct also is that one thing I dislike even more, is the fact that we don't have a representative democracy. That's very important to me. You know my gut instinct is I don't like women only short lists. But, they are the best and the only mechanism we've had to right a very long wrong that's been going on for a thousand-odd years. So, if you're actually going to try and change the system, then you do have to take some very tough measures. DIGNAN: Some fear the party leadership would only pick seats with large ethnic minority populations for all-black shortlists. There'd then be less pressure to select non-white candidates for other seats. PHILLIPS: I'm really against the idea of colour-coding constituencies because that essentially means that we are shut out of ninety-five per cent of the possibilities. You would not get the situation for example that you've got in Gloucester where we have Parmagit Singh Gunder an Asian candidate, who's won you know, on his own merits in a seat which is, has a very small proportion of ethnic minorities. ABBOTT: All black shortlists would ensure black and Asian MPs everywhere not just in ghetto areas. And just as with all women shortlists, the women were just as good and just as able as the men, the black and Asian MPs will be just as good and able as anybody. DIGNAN: It's unlikely there'd be time to impose all-black shortlists before these voters next go to the polls. So the party is facing demands to impose minority candidates in seats where the sitting Labour MP decides to stand down just as the election is called. VAZ: There has been a precedent in the past when you come near an election, for people with a track record to be put in to seats, and, and I don't see any problem with that. And so I think that would be a good way of showing that the party wants more ethnic minority candidates in parliament, by saying, look, we'll put you through a by-election panel because you have a track record, and then put you in to seats. DIGNAN: After winning the last election Tony Blair admitted there were too few black and Asian MPs in Parliament. TONY BLAIR: We can't be a beacon to the world unless the talents of all the people shine through. Not one black High Court judge. Not one black Chief Constable or Permanent Secretary. Not one black army officer above the rank of Colonel. Not one Asian either. Not a record of pride for the British Establishment and not a record of pride for a British Parliament that there are so few black and Asian MPs. DIGNAN: Three years on, and there's frustration that there's been little in the way of action to match the rhetoric. WOOLLEY: If he passionately believes in it, then he has to ensure, that his troops deliver on the representation front, they haven't and the responsibility lies with him. KING: I want Number Ten to look at these issues. I want the Labour Party to set up a commission, to look at these issues. Tony Blair has said that he will be involved, that Number Ten will be involved. We need to look at this from the very top of the party, because we are committed to greater representation for all groups but we haven't been able to get past the system, which trips you up every time. VAZ: The numbers show that we're not coming through in this way, so there's got to be another way, they've got to look at different ways. And they have over the years tried to make it much more equal and much more fairer and I think they're going to have to look at it again. DIGNAN: The prizes in our society are no longer monopolised by the majority. Politics, though, remains hard to break into. Labour has a better record than the others. Yet many believe it represents a poor return on the loyalty shown to the party by Britain's ethnic minorities.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.