BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 22.10.00

Film: New Scottish Labour Leader - Iain Watson reports on how he faces all the old problems and a few more besides.



HUMPHRYS: The Scottish Labour Party has a new leader, Henry McLeish. And this week he will be approved - almost certainly anyway - as the First Minister of Scotland. Not the easiest time to take over. Labour has big problems in Scotland, the fiasco over exams still lingers on and the Nationalists have a new leader too and he's really putting the pressure on. There's also the fact that Mr McLeish is succeeding Donald Dewar. Although Mr Dewar had plenty of problems he, at least, had years of experience in the front rank of Westminster politics. I'll be talking to Mr McLeish after this report from Iain Watson. IAIN WATSON: On Wednesday, Scotland was a nation united in grief. It wasn't just the great and the good who turned out to bury the country's first ever First Minister, but people without rank or title. Although people from all parties and none were present, the funeral itself had the air of a Labour movement event. Tribute after tribute which flowed from Glasgow's gothic cathedral, praised Donald Dewar's lifelong commitment to social justice. But, as night fell over his home city, Labour colleagues were already discussing how best to safeguard his legacy in the face of a resurgent opposition. Donald Dewar did much to turn the promise of a Scottish Parliament into reality. But his successor as Labour leader faces huge challenges if devolution isn't to rebound on the party which made it all possible. The Labour led coalition has been buffeted by bad headlines, even on those issues which play well for the party south of the border, such as education and health. And the Scottish National Party, under a new leader, are shifting their ground to exploit Labour's difficulties at the ballot box. Henry McLeish has the opportunity to offer Labour a fresh start in Scotland, but some of his colleagues are warning him of the threat posed by the SNP JOHN McALLION: In the Scottish elections they are a very serious contender indeed and indeed it may well suit voters in Scotland to have a Labour government at Westminster, and an SNP led administration in Holyrood. Because in that way they can get the best for Scotland from both sides JOHN CURTICE: Henry McLeish may well be regarded by some people in Scotland, and he will certainly be criticised by his opponents in the SNP, as yet another predominately Westminster import WATSON: Henry McLeish has to prove that a Labour led coalition can deliver on the people's priorities but it's been hit by bad publicity over, for example, the decision to abolish Clause 28, which prevented councils from promoting homosexuality. But it's on Labour's core issues that the problems are continuing. The health minister and the finance minister fell out over spending on the NHS, and with hospital waiting lists rising, Labour is in danger of not delivering on its pledge to get them down in time for the next General Election. On education, some pupils received inaccurate exam results which caused a crisis of confidence in the whole system. With an inquiry due to report on the fiasco, pressure may increase on the Labour education minister to go. ACTUALITY: WATSON: In England, if Labour's core voters feel disappointed, they tend to stay at home, here in Scotland they have an alternative. John Swinney is the new leader of the Scottish National Party, seen as a more reassuring figure than his predecessor Alex Salmond. He's pro-independence, of course, but his strategy is to perk up the SNP vote by talking about a wider range of issues and watering down the emphasis on separation from England. JOHN SWINNEY: We've got to get across to people the key lines of argument that we would put forward on the issues that concern the voters, about education or about health or crime or poverty or these other core social and economic concerns. And by setting that out to the public, I think we've sent out a message that's in tune with their own ambitions and the ambitions of their communities. And that's where the prospects for success for the SNP will come from. WATSON: The SNP will have an early opportunity to test their message in what was traditional Labour territory. There will be three by-elections in Scotland in the near future - two of them will be in the Glasgow Anniesland constituency of the late Donald Dewar. That's because his seat in the Westminster, as well as the Scottish Parliament will have to be filled. Labour may well attract a sympathy vote there, but here in West Falkirk, at the very heart of central Scotland, a bitter battle lies ahead The motto of this town is 'better meddle wi' the devil than wi' the bairns of Falkirk.' For those of you south of the border, roughly translated, that means 'don't mess with us mate'. Unfortunately for Labour, they didn't take that advice. The local MP Dennis Canavan wanted to stand for the Scottish Parliament but he was kept off the list of approved candidates. He stood anyway, as an Independent, and gave his former party a drubbing, and now he's about to resign his Westminster seat causing more problems for Labour at a difficult time. CURTICE: The SNP certainly have clearly signaled that Falkirk West is a clear target for them, although he's now leader John Sweeney has decided to put himself personally in charge of the campaign. WATSON: The SNP leader is confident that Labour's vote will decrease because they've surrendered their traditional ground to his party. SWINNEY: I think the SNP's values as a moderate left of centre political party are absolutely the right values within mainstream Scotland and which allows us to fight contests in Falkirk West or Anniesland or any of the other particular part of Scotland, in the central belt. The problem for the Labour Party is the fact that they've actually moved to the right in their political agenda. WATSON: Labour are the largest party at the Scottish Parliament here in Edinburgh. But their predominance may not persist. Recent opinion polls are suggesting that Scottish voters might vote a different way at elections to the Edinburgh parliament than to the Westminster parliament. Labour are in little danger of losing too many seats to the SNP at a UK General Election, but when it comes to the Scottish parliament - known locally as Holyrood - their support could drift away. CURTICE: We're still seeing persistently far fewer people preferring Labour for the Holyrood elections, than would do for a Westminster election, whereas in contrast the SNP are more popular when it comes to Holyrood elections. So as a result of this we're seeing the opinions polls showing fairly consistently the SNP at least neck and neck with Labour in recent months and occasionally well ahead. So when it comes to the contest for the next Scottish election in 2003, Labour certainly look as though they do have a serious challenge on their hands. WATSON: Dundee may look like the sort of place where Labour should be weighing its votes rather than counting it, but the SNP are creeping up - Labour fended them off by just 121 votes in the Dundee West constituency at last year's Scottish elections. The MSP for the neighbouring seat says that Labour must be seen to be standing up for Scotland - even if that means that they must argue for yet more powers to come north from Westminster. McALLION: If again the Labour Party were to allow the SNP in the Scottish parliament to be the party that was pushing for more powers for the Scottish parliament, while we consistently defended these powers being reserved to Westminster. Then again that would just reinforce their message, that they're Scotland's party and we're Westminster's party. And therefore I think the party in Scotland really has to continue and accept that it is a process and in the longer term more powers will come to the Scottish parliament. And rightly come to the Scottish parliament. WATSON: Opinion polls suggest that Scottish voters would be happy to see Labour, north of the border, pursue a more distinctive agenda from Westminster. CURTICE: All the persistent problems that Labour seem to have is to be able to convince people in Scotland that they're willing to use the powers of the Scottish parliament to deploy a public policy that perhaps is rather different from that which is going on south of the border. WATSON: So the argument runs that the new leader should not just distance himself from Westminster, but should also battle more strongly for Labour's heartlands, by reoccupying their traditional left wing territory. MARGARET CURRAN; I think in this area we get a real example of the kind of challenges that we face. Here we can graphically see the poverty that people have had to live with. WATSON: Margaret Curran's constituency includes the sprawling Easterhouse estate. She believes the SNP are trying to move opportunistically onto Labour's ground, so her party must demonstrate that it's delivering for its long-standing supporters. CURRAN: The big issues I think the new leader now has to address are the need absolutely for social justice and inclusion as they have already stated. But it is also the need for public investment. It is also the need to be loyal to the people that have always voted for us and to deliver for them. WATSON: East wood, just south of Glasgow, is about 15 miles from Margaret Curran's constituency; it too has a Labour MSP - but it's a very different place. Ken MacIntosh is enjoying the last few days of the parliamentary recess with his family. Labour snapped up the seat in 1997 for the first time and retained it in the 1999 Scottish elections. If Labour is tempted to take on the SNP from the left, it could leave places like this vulnerable. KEN MACINTOSH: I'm very aware here in this constituency that we have a Labour Tory fight as well as the national Labour SNP fight. Therefore we've got to appeal, make sure that we don't lose any of the Tory voters that came over to Labour at the last election and recognise that Labour is a party that can deliver on the economy and is a sound party of government and at the same time is not deserting any of our core voters or any of the voters that might think that the SNP in any way offer a more radical alternative which obviously they are trying to portray themselves as. WATSON: Labour's Scottish leader will have to fend off attacks from his opponents. As an ally of the Chancellor Gordon Brown some will say he's Westminster's man. But his political stock is more likely to fall as a result of the way in which he was selected for his new job. Labour's new leader in Scotland, Henry McLeish, was elected here in Stirling yesterday. He's seen as a safe pair of hands with ministerial experience both at Westminster and at Holyrood - but he can't celebrate his victory just yet. He has been elected only as interim leader of the party, and political opponents, and even some allies are calling for a proper contest involving the whole party membership here in Scotland. Labour's 54 MSPs along with the party's 27 strong executive had a vote in yesterday leadership ballot - that's 81 people out of a total membership of 30,000. The party admits this was a rush job, but say that the law required a new first minister within a month of Donald Dewar's death. ACTUALITY: "Jack McConnell 36, and Henry McLeish 44." WATSON: In the end it was a narrow victory for Henry McLeish, currently the Enterprise Minister, over his challenger, the Finance Minister, Jack McConnell. An electoral college comprising party members and trade unions will be asked to endorse the result, but some fear this will be merely an exercise in rubber stamping. The SNP have been quick to exploit the disquiet. SWINNEY: I think Henry McLeish starts off fatally wounded by the fact they he's a product of a political fix. He's the product of a restricted franchise and a limited election - there's been virtually no debate about this issue and I think the public will think a bit too much haste taken to decide on such an important issue. McALLION: It's a very hard act to follow, Donald Dewar. But only one way in which you can do that is by being, like him, elected by the membership of the Scottish Labour party. That gives them a status and a position in Scottish politics that otherwise they would not have. And therefore it's absolutely essential that there is a full democratic election and a contest for leader and deputy leader of the Labour party. WATSON: Labour always claimed that devolution would make the United kingdom stronger, not weaker. But Henry McLeish faces a difficult task - he has to convince voters he is standing up for Scotland without provoking too many conflicts with Westminster. But, after a tight election, he may lack the authority to take on the tough political challenges which lie ahead.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.