JOHN HUMPHRYS:                    But first the Middle 
East. As we've just been hearing in the news there has been more violence, 
more deaths as the fighting continues between Israelis and Palestinians. 
Leaders of the Arab world have been meeting in Cairo, they issued some 
strong words but not a lot in the way of action. As for the rest of the 
world..?  Well is there anything that this country can do to bring pressure 
to bear or would we be better  keep out of it? The Foreign Office Minister 
Peter Hain is in our Swansea studio.

                        Can we look first, Mr. 
Hain, at the suggestions that came, or requests if you like, that came 
out of that Arab summit, a war crimes tribunal?  Does that have any appeal 
to the British Government.

PETER HAIN MP:                Well, that's a matter for 
the security council.  It's understandable, as I experienced myself in 
the region in Cairo last week that with passions running very high and 
feelings inflamed about these awful scenes of violence which we've all 
observed, that that demand perhaps should have come from the summit.  Far 
more important, however, and far more encouraging, is that the summit, 
despite the background of bitterness that exists, has called for a resumption 
of the peace process, building upon the Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement last 
week, and has committed itself and shown in a very statesmanlike way, that 
the Arab nations want to see the peace process resumed, as does Britain, 
and it's vital that, with all the difficulties we face, and they are enormous, 
that we get people back around talking, rather than shooting at each other.

HUMPHRYS:                    I take your point that 
it is ultimately a matter for the United Nations, but clearly Britain, 
as a member of the Security Council has a large say in these affairs.  
Do we in principle, would we, might we, support the idea of a war crimes 
tribunal?

HAIN:                        No, I don't think 
so, because the circumstances in which war crimes tribunals have been established 
don't compare with the dreadful violence, yes, that we've seen over the 
last few weeks, but don't compare with the situation in  Cambodia, or the 
genocide in Kosovo, or Bosnia, and so on.  So what we have to focus on 
is how we get the peace process resumed and although I think the Israelis 
perhaps will want to look at their rules of engagement and see whether 
they have been properly followed by their own soldiers involved in these 
clashes, the Palestinians will also want in terms of their own command 
structure in the Palestinian Authority to see whether their own people 
have behaved responsibly.  These issues can all be addressed through the 
enquiry which came out of the Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement, and is under the 
auspices of the UN Secretary General, together with President Clinton. 
 What we want to do is look forward.  We can all look backwards forever, 
we can all look backwards and blame everybody, and obviously everybody's 
been horrified by the violence there, but what matters is that we recognise 
there is literally no alternative for either the Israelis, or the Palestinians, 
to talking rather than shooting.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well let's look forward 
at a way perhaps of stopping that shooting, and another suggestion that 
came out of that summit of Arab leaders, and that was that there should 
be some sort of United Nations protection force.  A lot of people have 
been killed.  What about a United Nations protection force, would we support 
that?

HAIN:                        Well, that will probably 
be considered by the United Nations Security Council...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...and our view would 
be what?

HAIN:                        Well, if you look 
at the circumstances in which protection forces, peace-keeping forces, 
as they are more commonly described, have gone in.  Sierre Leone, for example, 
that followed an admittedly fragile of peace agreement.  Similarly, other 
circumstances in which the UN has been deployed have followed peace agreements, 
so I am not saying that this won't happen, but I am saying that what we 
need to concentrate upon is getting both sides to disengage, and particularly, 
to ensure that their own hardliners admits the bitterness and the violence, 
obviously people's passions are enflamed and there's tremendous bitterness 
as I experienced for myself in Cairo last week, in the Arab community, 
and there's also bitterness in the Israeli community and we have to encourage 
the fundamentalists to take a back seat, and those who are committed to 
peace, President Arafat himself, Prime Minister Barak,  to take the front 
seat.  That is our priority at the moment.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, yeah, but I mean 
nothing is going to happen along those lines unless and until the violence 
stops.  Obviously because it feeds itself, doesn't it and then people react 
to the violence and we are in the sort of mess we are now and the Arab 
leaders clearly thought that one way of doing that might be to put a buffer 
in between the two sides and such a buffer could be a United Nations protection 
force, peace-keeping force, whatever you call it.  You seem to be suggesting 
that it is not, you wouldn't rule that yourself, you wouldn't rule that 
out.

HAIN:                        Well, we need to 
look at everything that could help to produce a better situation, but all 
I'm describing is the very difficult circumstances of first of all, getting 
any United Nations peace-keeping force anywhere in the world, and we've 
experienced that in Sierre Leone and in the Congo.  Now to suddenly intersperse 
one, overnight almost, into the situation there, would be incredibly difficult, 
even if there were support for it. So what I'm saying is that we need to 
use our best officers and Robin Cook was in the region only ten days ago, 
 I was there last week, working as hard as we can for peace, and I think 
if anything else has come out of these awful events, it has been that both 
sides now realise, if they didn't before, that there is no alternative 
to peace, because shooting and violence and killing doesn't succeed.  And 
there's one other, there's one other conclusion that I think we might draw 
from this John, that people sometimes ought to understand that as near 
as, the nearer you come to peace, the more difficult it becomes.  

                        I was in the region talking 
successively to Prime Minister Barak and President Arafat at the end of 
August, just two months ago.  It was quite clear that they were tantalisingly 
close to peace, but then the fundamentalists on both sides, and the hardliners 
who were always opposed to the peace process have managed to insert themselves 
between the peace-makers.  Now we need to create circumstances in which 
the peace-makers take the lead and in which the hardliners are put back 
into the shadows.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, maybe if we have 
any say in these matters at all, and many people would argue that we don't, 
there's no point, with the best will in the world of people like you and 
Robin Cook going there, because they don't listen to us, but if we are 
going to there...

HAIN:                        ...that's not true...

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, look at the history 
of the last few days and the last few weeks, clearly they have not listened 
to you.  I mean Sharon is...Barak is now talking about bringing, has been 
for a while, talking about bringing Sharon into his government.  Arafat 
is not telling his boys to lay off, so we're seeing a continuation of all 
of this, I mean, have you not, if you are going to get involved, and many 
people say there is absolutely no point in you getting involved, but if 
you are, have you not got to take a much firmer line, just talking doesn't 
seem to be achieving anything?

HAIN:                        Well, you know a 
country like Britain which is a close friend of both the Israelis and the 
Palestinians and which has a high standing, as I know myself, throughout 
the Arab world, and is also friends with the other key player in this, 
the US, and is a member of the European Union, which is very influential. 
We can play a pivotal role and if the parties want us to do so and to do 
more than we've done in the past which has been to be very closely engaged, 
then obviously we will want to look at that very creatively and constructively. 
But, you know, it's much better to exert influence by staying on the inside 
track than to stand outside and issue denunciatory statements or to take 
strong actions that would simply play into the hands of those who want 
to back away from the peace process and want a war to the end. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Are there any circumstances 
in which we would recognise a Palestinian state if that's what Arafat wants 
us to do.?

HAIN:                        Well we have made 
it clear as signatories to the European Declaration that we support Palestinian 
self-determination and ultimately an independent Palestinian state. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Yeah, but if he calls 
it, if Arafat says right that's it now, you know this is the road we are 
going down, what will be say?

HAIN:                        I know the point 
you are making but what is interesting is that the Arab summit did not 
urge that upon him and our view is and I have expressed this very firmly 
to him as a friend of the Palestinians and a long standing supporter of 
Palestinian rights, that a unilateral declaration of independence would 
create a crippled Palestinian state without secure borders, without an 
agreement with the Israelis, without as much territory than was on offer 
only a few weeks ago and still is, if the peace process can be resumed. 
So what.. by far, miles preferable alternative is for an agreed Palestinian 
state that I am convinced will come and could come sooner rather than later, 
despite the awful events of the last few weeks if the agreed peace process 
can be got back on track because it is quite clear that all the parties 
know that a Palestinian state is inevitable and it exists in such close 
proximity to the Israelis that they cannot do anything else other than 
move together as partners rather than as enemies and so that is the objective 
which we need to move towards. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Peter Hain, thank you 
very much indeed for joining us this morning. 

HAIN:                        Thank you.