JOHN HUMPHRYS:                So, Mr McLeish, you've obviously 
got a lot of problems, I mean that's clear, all leaders have lots of problems 
but you are going to find them rather more difficult aren't you because 
you don't have the support that Donald Dewar had. I mean, what was it, 
forty-four votes out of eighty-one, not exactly massive.

HENRY MCLEISH:                I think the first point 
to make John is that there may be some problems around but there are enormous 
opportunities and I think what we need to remember is the circumstances 
in which this election was fought.  First of all the Parliament decided 
that they needed twenty-eight days within which the First Minister had 
to be elected but secondly the party had its electoral college.  So what 
we had to do in the circumstances was to come up with the Executive and 
the MSPs carrying out their ballot. So I think that was fair, it was very 
democratic and of course the outcome of that will go to an electoral college 
with a leader and the deputy leader having to be confirmed by the party. 
So it's real choices and I think in the circumstances this has been the 
correct way forward. 

HUMPHRYS:                    You say very democratic, 
eighty-one people voting out of a membership, a party membership of thirty 
thousand, doesn't sound very democratic to most people I suspect. 

MCLEISH:                    But I think in the circumstances, 
as I have explained to you, extraordinary circumstances following in the 
tragic death of Donald. That said you had parliamentary procedures, you 
had political procedures and I agree with people about the legitimacy of 
the mandate. I have a mandate but at the end of the day the party still 
has an electoral college and that will be the binding decision. I think 
that shows the Labour Party putting forward democracy in a very positive 
way but let's remember that ten days ago we had a leader who was alive. 
Donald died very tragically, I think the party has moved quickly and I 
believe the public will acknowledge what we have done is the best way forward 
in difficult circumstances. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But your difficulty is 
that you are, in effect at the moment, an interim leader, you haven't been 
probably endorsed have you. I mean you really can't claim that a handful 
of votes of parliamentarians and Executive members is an endorsement. 

MCLEISH:                    I think what is important 
is that the two contenders, myself and Jack McConnell did agree that in 
the circumstances this would be the important decision, this would be the 
decision that would bind us. He's taken that away from the decision and 
so have I, but what I am concerned about now is not the margin of victory 
but the fact we have a victory and we can now push forward. When you consider 
that we've lost focus in politics because of the tragic events, I have 
a number of immediate tasks to tackle which is what we intend to do. 

HUMPHRYS:                    I'd like to come to some 
of those tasks but let's just deal with this issue finally first. And the 
problem that you are going to face is that it will be seen, is being seen 
by some as a sort of old-fashioned backroom fix. I mean you didn't even 
consult every single member of the Executive probably did you?

MCLEISH:                    No, I think that's not 
correct John. I mean I think I've explained, which I think is straightforward 
and common sense and I think the people will appreciate that, very difficult 
circumstances, very tight timetable being set down. That said the full 
Executive of the party was involved...

HUMPHRYS:                    But not each member, 
not each member was asked..

MCLEISH:                    The full Scottish Executive 
was involved in the ballot and of course all the MSPs were involved and 
I think in the circumstances the party thought and I supported that, this 
was the best way forward. We have democracy within the party, in those 
set of circumstances this was the best way forward. But of course and this 
is the caveat, we still have an electoral college which will have to confirm 
or indeed have a contest for the leader and the deputy leader.  That is 
democracy in action. 

HUMPHRYS:                    My point about the Executive 
was that not every single member of it was consulted. Yes of course they 
all had a vote but they weren't all consulted as to whether this was the 
best way to do it or not, that was my point. 

MCLEISH:                    But again, I think the 
circumstances very much dictated what had to happen and at the end of the 
day some people will feel that it should have gone strictly to electoral 
college. That could have taken six, eight, maybe twelve weeks, in the circumstances 
that was not a possibility.  I think we've got a satisfactory compromise 
at this stage but subject to the point that the full electoral college 
will have to confirm the leader and of course there maybe an electoral 
for the deputy leader. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Well yeah, but I mean 
the electoral college, it's all very well but all it can do, as you say, 
is confirm, it's not going to be a contest. I mean why don't you get on 
the phone now. Here's a way, let's see whether this appeals to you in an 
exercise in democracy. You could get on the phone now and you could say 
to Jack McConnell, look we've had this election, not by your own admission, 
not entirely satisfactory because of the time during which it had to happen 
and all that. Why don't you stand against me again at a proper electoral 
college contest where everybody can get a vote and then that will really 
prove it won't it. Why don't you do that?

MCLEISH:                    John, that may be an interesting 
perspective on the lunchtime programme. But let me say this, first of all 
it's not just a confirmation, anyone can stand if they wish and that's 
still open, that's what democracy is about. But I think secondly....

HUMPHRYS:                    ...but Jack McConnell 
is the only realistic one isn't he?

MCLEISH:                    ..but secondly, what is 
important now is that we have refocused on the real issues, the real priorities 
of politics in Scotland. We may have two or three by-elections coming up 
within a matter of weeks, we could have a General Election within a matter 
of months, it's vitally important that the party unites now and refocuses 
and gets on with some of the real issues. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But that's the point 
isn't it. It's because of all those elections coming up that you don't 
want to rock the boat, that's why you want just a straightforward confirmation 
as opposed to a genuine challenge, which of course you would have if Mr 
McConnell were to stand against you but he's not going to and that is why 
people are able to say, like John Swinney, people are able to say - the 
leader of the Scottish Nationalists - they are able to say, this is a bit 
of a fix. 

MCLEISH:                    I think John Swinney's 
comments were not surprising, that's the nature of the SNP, a one policy 
party, a protest party, a party of breaking Scotland up. That said it is 
not a matter of merely asking the electoral college to confirm, they have 
real choices, there can be a real contest. What Jack McConnell and I have 
said is that there are real important issues, not a matter of rocking any 
boat John, but actually saying now is the time to move forward after two 
difficult political months and ten tragic days involving the death of Donald. 


HUMPHRYS:                    Would you like to see 
Jack McConnell stand against you at the electoral college, I mean it would 
be a real contest wouldn't it. 

MCLEISH:                    I think we've had a real 
contest and I think when you consider...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...eighty-one people 
able to vote...

MCLEISH:                    When you consider that 
Jack McConnell and I have said in the circumstances this is the important 
way to go forward and look John I think the important issue is this. People 
who are MSPs can stand for the leader, it is not an automatic confirmation 
but my hopeful message is that the party has got work to do but secondly 
we may have a contest for the deputy leader so this is democracy in action 
but any democratic process has got to reflect the changing circumstances. 
Indeed there are very few situations in the United Kingdom over the last 
fifty years where we've had such a tragic set of circumstances to deal 
with and at the same time, allow conflicting pressures from the parliament 
to be reconciled with conflicting pressures from the party. So I think 
progress has been made. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Alright, well, let's 
look at some of those issues that you referred to and one of them, one 
of the real problems in Scotland at the moment is the fiasco that there 
was over the Highers results, the way all of that was mishandled.  Now 
an awful lot of people say Sam Galbraith should go.  That's it - I mean 
he made a mess of it and he should go.  Are you going to make a clean sweep 
if, when, you become confirmed as leader?

MCLEISH:                    We're looking at every 
aspect of the work ahead John, that includes the cabinet, depute ministers, 
it includes how we effectively communicate to the people of Scotland.  
There's a whole range of issues.  One of the key issues for me of course 
is to get more backbench MSPs involved in the work of the project.  That 
said, I'll look 
carefully at what's on the ground and I'm not in a position and certainly 
wouldn't be in a position to discuss these matters at this stage.

HUMPHRYS:                    But I mean as far as 
you yourself are concerned you were involved in that exam fiasco weren't 
you.  I mean you were running the Scottish Qualifications Authority, or 
rather you were responsible for the Scottish Qualifications Authority. 
 You should be eating a bit of humble pie yourself shouldn't you?

MCLEISH:                    Well, I think all of us 
eat humble pie John.  I mean I think.....

HUMPHRYS:                    It's not a thing I've 
noticed as a characteristic of politicians!

MCLEISH:                    Well, it may be up North 
John, you might have to come and see us a bit more up here, but no, you're 
right, this was an utter fiasco.  The key issue is to make sure it doesn't 
happen again.  There are loads of issues that we've got to tackle with 
the SQA itself, there are a number of issues concerning the education aspect, 
but these are the subject of inquiries at the present time, these matters 
will be resolved, but more importantly everyone is working very hard to 
make sure that young people next year don't go through the nightmare of 
this year. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But you are part of the 
blame, aren't you yourself, I mean that's the difficulty.  You carry part 
of the can for it?

MCLEISH:                    Well, we're all collectively 
responsible at the end of the day, and I think that's not been hidden up 
here, but I think the main point now in politics, you can own up as the 
government has done here to a real fiasco, but more importantly the public 
are concerned about getting it right.  That's what we're doing at the present 
time.

HUMPHRYS:                    Something else that people 
regarded as a bit odd, indeed fiasco perhaps might be the word, is your 
health spending up there, you under-spent your budget by what was it, thirty-four 
million pounds.  I mean this sort of thing is unheard of in politics as 
a rule.  People want more money spent not less.   How can you absolutely 
guarantee that that isn't going to happen again?

MCLEISH:                    John, it didn't happen 
anyway.  I think we're in a situation where we're spending record sums 
of money on the Health Service, not only in the United Kingdom but in Scotland. 
  Very significant extra cash over the next three years. That will benefit 
and improve services in every part of Scotland.  I think that may be an 
issue that you've picked up, but as far as the people of Scotland are concerned 
we've got some great policies on health being pursued vigorously and it's 
evident when you see the number of hospitals that we're going to open in 
the future, the improvements in waiting times and a whole range of other 
issues, so that's the big issue in Scotland, not the fact that in any one 
year that you can look at expenditure and say it hasn't been spent.  We're 
just spending simply billions more than we were two or three years ago.

HUMPHRYS:                    But I mean why, you're 
not telling me that that 
sort of money wasn't needed in Scotland.  I'll bet there's loads of people 
who can tell you where and when and how it was needed.

MCLEISH:                    Well,  that's right, and 
it is being spent.  I mean we're spending as I said, billions of pounds 
extra over the next three years, and this has been the product of some 
very, very good government at Westminster, sound public finances.  And 
what we've got in Scotland is a unique set of circumstances where we're 
able to tackle child poverty for the first time, full employment, giving 
everyone a job, and at the same time record levels of spending on health 
and education.  You may say there are some problems around, but on the 
other hand there's some excellent opportunities for us to take that agenda 
forward.

HUMPHRYS:                    And I would say there's 
a problem with your new parliament building.  It was supposed to cost what 
was it, fifty million pounds - it's hit two hundred and thirty million 
now, and still rising.  What are you going to do about that?

MCLEISH:                    Well, I think we're doing 
a great deal about that John, because what we've got being built at Holyrood 
it's a wonderful site at the bottom of the Royal Mile, a unique location 
for a unique parliament. After three hundred years there is a sense of 
pride emerging about what's going to happen there.  Clearly there've been 
early problems about costs and technical issues, but we're now seeing that 
mature and I think the debate will increasingly focus on what it will provide 
for Scotland, that is one of my main tasks, to make sure that the pride 
and purpose of the parliament are more to the fore rather than concentrating 
on some of the problems of the past.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, I'd have thought 
that pride had it price, doesn't it.  I mean, two-hundred and thirty million 
pounds is an awful lot of money to spend on a building, and you can't guarantee 
can you that it is not going to rise above two-hundred and thirty million 
pounds, bearing in mind it was meant to be fifty.

MCLEISH:                    I think that that product 
will be...will justify the investment in it.

HUMPHRYS:                    Even if it's more - might 
it be more?

MCLEISH:                    I think that at the present 
time John there's firm management, they've got a vision for the project, 
great architectural designs, it's moving forward.  Of course there were 
difficulties in the early days, but when you consider in ninety-seven we 
were elected, we had to get a White Paper, a referendum, a bill, and act 
to get it all forward.  In addition to that the early day of designing 
and planning the parliament.  I think when you step back from the Scotland 
project you can see that after three hundred years this is quite a phenomenal 
accomplishment.  I just hope now to build on the legacy that Donald has 
left and try with colleagues to develop that further. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, I wonder whether 
that's true, certainly as far as the Labour Party is concerned.  I mean 
devolution was going to be a good thing for your party as well as for Scotland 
of course.  I mean every politician has selfish interests.  The fact is 
it doesn't seem to be doing you very much good at all does it?  I mean 
look at your standing in the polls, as far as the SNP is concerned with 
the Holyrood Parliament.  I mean they're hammering you at the moment according 
to the polls, and of course polls change, but nonetheless it's not done 
you any favours has it?

MCLEISH:                    Well, I think John, when 
you look at this in the round, the achievement of the parliament has been 
widely welcomed in Scotland and a resounding success, but of course you 
don't start up an institution as enormous as that without some early difficulties, 
and we've had some and let's be honest enough to admit that.  But on the 
other hand we're now deciding major issues in Scotland with Scottish elected 
representatives and working more closely with the people of Scotland, and 
let's remember that from the SNP point of view they don't want devolution, 
they just want the breaking up of the United Kingdom, they want a seat 
on every world authority.  That would involve enormous costs at a time 
when we need to be unified and get the best out of devolution.  So I've 
no doubt that the people in Scotland appreciate what's happening, devolution 
is and will be a huge success, and I'm quite willing in my new role to 
take that argument to every part of Scotland where I'm sure it will be 
endorsed, especially in the run up to the general election.        
HUMPHRYS:                    Henry McLeish,  thank 
you very much indeed.

MCLEISH:                    Thank you.