JOHN HUMPHRYS:                    But first, Northern 
Ireland.  The First Minister, David Trimble, managed, just, to win the 
support of his Ulster Unionist Party yesterday but at a price. He's placated 
his hardliners by refusing to allow Sinn Fein to attend meetings of the 
North South ministerial bodies that were set up as part of the Good Friday 
Agreement and he won't let them back in again until the IRA starts putting 
its weapons beyond use.  So how is Sinn Fein going to respond to that. 
Well the party's activists are meeting near Dundalk in the Republic and 
Martin McGuinness, who's the Education Minister in Northern Ireland joins 
us form there now.  

                        Good afternoon Mr McGuinness. 
  

MARTIN MCGUINNESS:            Good afternoon John. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Now one of your ministers 
is actually supposed to be going to a North South meeting this week, what's 
going to happen?  

MCGUINNESS:                Well we hope that that meeting 
will take place, we hope that people will sit back and reflect on the enormity 
of what the Ulster Unionist Party have decided in the course of the last 
twenty-four hours. Clearly David Trimble and the leadership of his party 
have now effectively stepped outside the Agreement. David Trimble is in 
danger of being in contravention, in breach of his ministerial pledge, 
the code of conduct agreed at the Executive. And I think people should 
recognise that this is a recipe for disaster. This is a clear declaration 
of his intent to bring about the destruction of the Good Friday Agreement 
and I think he needs to reflect on that and he needs to consider that he's 
making a very very serious blunder. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Well he's not going to 
change his mind is he because he said just this morning, just a few hours 
ago that he's taken legal advice, he's perfectly entitled to do it and 
this is what he intends to do. And clearly he couldn't back down in the 
face of his own party now. So what are you going to do, are you going send 
that minister there, is she going to go there.  Are you going to take legal 
advice, I mean are you going to try and defy it or what?

MCGUINNESS:                Well I think the first thing 
that must be done is that there should actually be now an urgent meeting 
of the Executive. I think that people need to be reminded that all of us 
sat around the Executive table last Thursday, Seamus Mallon was there, 
Bairbre de Brun and myself were there and David Trimble and other representatives 
of his party and there was no discussion whatsoever about what was to come 
on Saturday. So clearly there now needs to be because of this refusal to 
consult with the rest of us, there needs to be a meeting of the Executive 
and that needs to happen urgently. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But are you planning, 
in the absence of something like that and some backing down on the part 
of Mr Trimble which as I say is entirely unlikely, are you planning to 
try to attend these meetings, to try to take part in them anyway. 

MCGUINNESS:                Well I think it is absolutely 
vital and essential that the institutions that were set up as a result 
of the Good Friday Agreement continue to work and continue to work effectively 
so there is a clear responsibility on David Trimble and all of the other 
pro-Agreement parties within the institutions to ensure that those institutions 
are working and are working well.  One of the big difficulties that we 
face at this time as a result of the events of the last twenty-four hours, 
you know it has always been very very clear that people like Ian Paisley 
and Jeffrey Donaldson lead the no wing of Unionism. What is now in question 
for many Nationalists is a source of huge confusion for them and that is 
whether or not David Trimble is now leading the don't know wing of Unionism. 
 

HUMPHRYS:                    Now, you didn't answer 
the question though. Are you going to try to go to the meeting, or your 
colleagues.

MCGUINNESS:                Well I think what we need to 
do first of all is have the meeting of the Executive and certainly the 
Sinn Fein ministers intend to fulfil their responsibilities under the terms 
of the agreement and we will be endeavouring to go to that meeting yes. 


HUMPHRYS:                    Now, you describe what 
Mr Trimble's done as the enormity of it, isn't the real enormity of this 
that the IRA has simply refused to make the very clear commitment, to meet 
the very clear commitment that it made in May and I quote from that, from 
 what they said, to initiate a process which will completely and verifiably 
put IRA arms beyond use.  They have not done that, they have broken a very 
clear commitment. 

MCGUINNESS:                Well I think you need to be 
reminded that the two international inspectors, Cyril Rampahosa and Martti 
Ahtisaari, two eminent statesmen from the international community have 
made it quite clear that they believe that the IRA have fulfilled their 
commitments and I think clearly there is a responsibility to ensure that 
all of the participants to the different agreements that have been made 
right throughout this process, fulfil the responsibilities that they have 
made and of course agreements were made earlier this year at Hillsborough. 
Now it's very important to point out that the IRA didn't make any agreements 
with the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party. Agreements were made 
between Sinn Fein and the British government and indeed between the IRA 
and the British government. The dificulty...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...you chucked them out...

MCGUINNESS:                ..well the British government 
have not fulfilled and honoured the commitments that they made at that 
time and there was a very clear commitment by the British government that 
they would fully implement the Patten proposals because we do need a policing 
service. We need a new beginning to policing in the North and as we speak 
at this moment the Nationalist community and that includes the SDLP and 
the leadership of the Catholic Church and ordinary Nationalists on the 
ground are in uproar at the refusal of Peter Mandelson to implement fully 
the Patten proposals. People are also very concerned about the situation 
in South Armagh and other parts of the North where clearly the British 
have dishonoured their commitment to demilitarise. All of these matters 
essentially means that there is a responsibility, particularly on the British 
Prime Minister and on our ourselves and others to ensure that all of the 
commitments that are made are honoured. As far as I am concerned, it's 
about duty and responsibility on everybody, that includes the IRA and the 
British government to live up to the commitments that they have made. But 
our difficulty, John, within this process, clearly, is that we have seen 
a situation where the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party and people 
within the British establishment have attempted to effectively emasculate 
the Good Friday Agreement and of course the Unionists will continue to 
behave in the way that they are behaving, if the British government allow 
them to get away with it and that is why the performance of Peter Mandelson 
in particular is so disappointing. 
                        
HUMPHRYS:                    Well, let me remind you 
what the British government has done as far as demilitarisation is concerned. 
 They've pulled out three-thousand-five hundred troops since the ceasefire 
from Northern Ireland, troop levels are at their lowest that they have 
been since the troubles began, the early release programme of prisoners 
has been completed.  What has the IRA done?  The IRA has made one phone 
call, one call, to the commission, the international commission, and they've 
opened up a few arms dumps for an inspection.  Well, that is not the beginning 
of the process that they had promised, is it?

MCGUINNESS:                Well I think anybody that knows 
the individual circumstances that have existed here in the North of Ireland 
of many years, whether it be thirty years, or three-hundred years, will 
understand the huge significance of what the IRA has done.  The fact is 
that the IRA have opened up their arms dumps, and have allowed international 
inspectors to inspect them, they have now re-inspected those dumps and 
they have told the world quite clearly that they are satisfied that the 
IRA have not moved those weapons and that those weapons have remained silent. 
 So I think, you know, let's, let's give credit where credit is due. The 
IRA have made a huge contribution to the search for peace in Ireland, the 
IRA have been in ceasefire for years and we clearly now need to see from 
everybody, and I do think there is a responsibility on everybody, and that 
includes the British government, and it includes the IRA, to honour the 
commitments that they made.  As far as I am concerned, the IRA have been 
honouring their commitments, as far as I am concerned, the British government 
have not yet honoured the very clear commitments that they have given on 
very, very important issues within this process.

HUMPHRYS:                    So the IRA has done everything 
it's supposed to do and you, Sinn Fein, are not honouring your commitment 
therefore to put pressure on them to do more.  I mean, that is your commitment, 
isn't it.  To put pressure on them to do more, to use your influence, what 
you seem to be saying is they've done everything that is required of them, 
which will come as a great surprise to many people.

MCGUINNESS:                Our commitment John, is to 
work to ensure that the peace process is a success.  And I think anybody 
that has watched this conflict resolution process over the course of recent 
years, knows that for over ten years the Sinn Fein leadership have been 
out front in trying to develop a creditable peace process.  Our big difficulty 
is that the British government and the leadership of Unionism have found 
it very, very difficult to come to terms with the type of changes that 
have to take place.  You see, the reality is that I represent people who 
are no longer going to be treated like second-class citizens in their own 
country.  I am not going to be treated as a second-class minister by the 
leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, or indeed by Peter Mandelson, or anybody 
else.  And I think that the sooner people get to grips with the reality 
of why we are in difficulties within this process, the better.  And why 
are we with...in great difficulty within this process?  We're in great 
difficulty within this process because there are those, those within the 
British establishment who have yet to come terms with the needs of equality 
and justice and human rights and we're in difficulty within this process 
because Unionism, and I make a clear distinction between the political 
leadership of Unionism and Unionist grass roots, who are very much for 
this process.  The political leadership of Unionism have yet to come to 
terms with the reality that there is a community within the North, the 
nationalist community, many of them are Catholics who are no longer going 
to be treated as second-class citizens in their own country.

HUMPHRYS:                    So when David Trimble 
says there if there is no progress made there should be a formal review, 
another formal review of the whole Agreement by the British government 
and everybody else.  What do you say to him?

MCGUINNESS:                Well, what I say is that there 
needs to be an implementation of the Agreement and the Unionist political 
leadership, who have opposed for example, the Patten proposals, who have 
opposed demilitarisation, who have opposed the release of prisoners and 
have opposed many other aspects of the Agreement, need to sit down and 
reflect on where all of this has taken us.  We have people out there within 
the political leadership of Unionism, who are very, very determined to 
drive the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process to destruction.  
What I want to see is decisive leadership from those people who have told 
us for the last number of yeas that they are prepared to move forward and 
bring about the essential change that needs to be brought about.  I want 
to see those people effectively reflecting on what has happened over the 
course of the recent while and taking the vital decision that we must press 
on with the implementation of the Agreement, because the great tragedy 
about all of this, John, is this, is that I know there are many, many tens 
of thousands of good, decent Unionists, Protestant people in the North, 
who want to work with me, and who know that I want to work them to build 
a new future for all of us.  The difficulty is that the rejectionists within 
Unionism, led by Paisley and Donaldson, have now effectively turned David 
Trimble, to use Donaldson's words, on to their ground.  Now these people 
are full of people who are not really concerned about the issue of decommissioning 
at all, these are people who are opposed to equality, these are people 
who are opposed, not just to having Sinn Fein in a power-sharing government, 
they're also opposed to the SDLP, because they believe in majority rule, 
they want to keep the RUC to themselves, they want the British Army on 
the streets, and all they are offering up to the rest of us, is a diet 
of misery for the next thirty years.

HUMPHRYS:                    Martin McGuinness, thank 
you very much indeed.