BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 29.10.00

Interview: MARTIN McGUINNESS MLA, Education Minister, Northern Ireland Executive.

How will Sinn Fein respond to the ultimatum from the Ulster Unionist?



JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Northern Ireland. The First Minister, David Trimble, managed, just, to win the support of his Ulster Unionist Party yesterday but at a price. He's placated his hardliners by refusing to allow Sinn Fein to attend meetings of the North South ministerial bodies that were set up as part of the Good Friday Agreement and he won't let them back in again until the IRA starts putting its weapons beyond use. So how is Sinn Fein going to respond to that. Well the party's activists are meeting near Dundalk in the Republic and Martin McGuinness, who's the Education Minister in Northern Ireland joins us form there now. Good afternoon Mr McGuinness. MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: Now one of your ministers is actually supposed to be going to a North South meeting this week, what's going to happen? MCGUINNESS: Well we hope that that meeting will take place, we hope that people will sit back and reflect on the enormity of what the Ulster Unionist Party have decided in the course of the last twenty-four hours. Clearly David Trimble and the leadership of his party have now effectively stepped outside the Agreement. David Trimble is in danger of being in contravention, in breach of his ministerial pledge, the code of conduct agreed at the Executive. And I think people should recognise that this is a recipe for disaster. This is a clear declaration of his intent to bring about the destruction of the Good Friday Agreement and I think he needs to reflect on that and he needs to consider that he's making a very very serious blunder. HUMPHRYS: Well he's not going to change his mind is he because he said just this morning, just a few hours ago that he's taken legal advice, he's perfectly entitled to do it and this is what he intends to do. And clearly he couldn't back down in the face of his own party now. So what are you going to do, are you going send that minister there, is she going to go there. Are you going to take legal advice, I mean are you going to try and defy it or what? MCGUINNESS: Well I think the first thing that must be done is that there should actually be now an urgent meeting of the Executive. I think that people need to be reminded that all of us sat around the Executive table last Thursday, Seamus Mallon was there, Bairbre de Brun and myself were there and David Trimble and other representatives of his party and there was no discussion whatsoever about what was to come on Saturday. So clearly there now needs to be because of this refusal to consult with the rest of us, there needs to be a meeting of the Executive and that needs to happen urgently. HUMPHRYS: But are you planning, in the absence of something like that and some backing down on the part of Mr Trimble which as I say is entirely unlikely, are you planning to try to attend these meetings, to try to take part in them anyway. MCGUINNESS: Well I think it is absolutely vital and essential that the institutions that were set up as a result of the Good Friday Agreement continue to work and continue to work effectively so there is a clear responsibility on David Trimble and all of the other pro-Agreement parties within the institutions to ensure that those institutions are working and are working well. One of the big difficulties that we face at this time as a result of the events of the last twenty-four hours, you know it has always been very very clear that people like Ian Paisley and Jeffrey Donaldson lead the no wing of Unionism. What is now in question for many Nationalists is a source of huge confusion for them and that is whether or not David Trimble is now leading the don't know wing of Unionism. HUMPHRYS: Now, you didn't answer the question though. Are you going to try to go to the meeting, or your colleagues. MCGUINNESS: Well I think what we need to do first of all is have the meeting of the Executive and certainly the Sinn Fein ministers intend to fulfil their responsibilities under the terms of the agreement and we will be endeavouring to go to that meeting yes. HUMPHRYS: Now, you describe what Mr Trimble's done as the enormity of it, isn't the real enormity of this that the IRA has simply refused to make the very clear commitment, to meet the very clear commitment that it made in May and I quote from that, from what they said, to initiate a process which will completely and verifiably put IRA arms beyond use. They have not done that, they have broken a very clear commitment. MCGUINNESS: Well I think you need to be reminded that the two international inspectors, Cyril Rampahosa and Martti Ahtisaari, two eminent statesmen from the international community have made it quite clear that they believe that the IRA have fulfilled their commitments and I think clearly there is a responsibility to ensure that all of the participants to the different agreements that have been made right throughout this process, fulfil the responsibilities that they have made and of course agreements were made earlier this year at Hillsborough. Now it's very important to point out that the IRA didn't make any agreements with the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party. Agreements were made between Sinn Fein and the British government and indeed between the IRA and the British government. The dificulty... HUMPHRYS: ...you chucked them out... MCGUINNESS: ..well the British government have not fulfilled and honoured the commitments that they made at that time and there was a very clear commitment by the British government that they would fully implement the Patten proposals because we do need a policing service. We need a new beginning to policing in the North and as we speak at this moment the Nationalist community and that includes the SDLP and the leadership of the Catholic Church and ordinary Nationalists on the ground are in uproar at the refusal of Peter Mandelson to implement fully the Patten proposals. People are also very concerned about the situation in South Armagh and other parts of the North where clearly the British have dishonoured their commitment to demilitarise. All of these matters essentially means that there is a responsibility, particularly on the British Prime Minister and on our ourselves and others to ensure that all of the commitments that are made are honoured. As far as I am concerned, it's about duty and responsibility on everybody, that includes the IRA and the British government to live up to the commitments that they have made. But our difficulty, John, within this process, clearly, is that we have seen a situation where the leadership of the Ulster Unionist Party and people within the British establishment have attempted to effectively emasculate the Good Friday Agreement and of course the Unionists will continue to behave in the way that they are behaving, if the British government allow them to get away with it and that is why the performance of Peter Mandelson in particular is so disappointing. HUMPHRYS: Well, let me remind you what the British government has done as far as demilitarisation is concerned. They've pulled out three-thousand-five hundred troops since the ceasefire from Northern Ireland, troop levels are at their lowest that they have been since the troubles began, the early release programme of prisoners has been completed. What has the IRA done? The IRA has made one phone call, one call, to the commission, the international commission, and they've opened up a few arms dumps for an inspection. Well, that is not the beginning of the process that they had promised, is it? MCGUINNESS: Well I think anybody that knows the individual circumstances that have existed here in the North of Ireland of many years, whether it be thirty years, or three-hundred years, will understand the huge significance of what the IRA has done. The fact is that the IRA have opened up their arms dumps, and have allowed international inspectors to inspect them, they have now re-inspected those dumps and they have told the world quite clearly that they are satisfied that the IRA have not moved those weapons and that those weapons have remained silent. So I think, you know, let's, let's give credit where credit is due. The IRA have made a huge contribution to the search for peace in Ireland, the IRA have been in ceasefire for years and we clearly now need to see from everybody, and I do think there is a responsibility on everybody, and that includes the British government, and it includes the IRA, to honour the commitments that they made. As far as I am concerned, the IRA have been honouring their commitments, as far as I am concerned, the British government have not yet honoured the very clear commitments that they have given on very, very important issues within this process. HUMPHRYS: So the IRA has done everything it's supposed to do and you, Sinn Fein, are not honouring your commitment therefore to put pressure on them to do more. I mean, that is your commitment, isn't it. To put pressure on them to do more, to use your influence, what you seem to be saying is they've done everything that is required of them, which will come as a great surprise to many people. MCGUINNESS: Our commitment John, is to work to ensure that the peace process is a success. And I think anybody that has watched this conflict resolution process over the course of recent years, knows that for over ten years the Sinn Fein leadership have been out front in trying to develop a creditable peace process. Our big difficulty is that the British government and the leadership of Unionism have found it very, very difficult to come to terms with the type of changes that have to take place. You see, the reality is that I represent people who are no longer going to be treated like second-class citizens in their own country. I am not going to be treated as a second-class minister by the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, or indeed by Peter Mandelson, or anybody else. And I think that the sooner people get to grips with the reality of why we are in difficulties within this process, the better. And why are we with...in great difficulty within this process? We're in great difficulty within this process because there are those, those within the British establishment who have yet to come terms with the needs of equality and justice and human rights and we're in difficulty within this process because Unionism, and I make a clear distinction between the political leadership of Unionism and Unionist grass roots, who are very much for this process. The political leadership of Unionism have yet to come to terms with the reality that there is a community within the North, the nationalist community, many of them are Catholics who are no longer going to be treated as second-class citizens in their own country. HUMPHRYS: So when David Trimble says there if there is no progress made there should be a formal review, another formal review of the whole Agreement by the British government and everybody else. What do you say to him? MCGUINNESS: Well, what I say is that there needs to be an implementation of the Agreement and the Unionist political leadership, who have opposed for example, the Patten proposals, who have opposed demilitarisation, who have opposed the release of prisoners and have opposed many other aspects of the Agreement, need to sit down and reflect on where all of this has taken us. We have people out there within the political leadership of Unionism, who are very, very determined to drive the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process to destruction. What I want to see is decisive leadership from those people who have told us for the last number of yeas that they are prepared to move forward and bring about the essential change that needs to be brought about. I want to see those people effectively reflecting on what has happened over the course of the recent while and taking the vital decision that we must press on with the implementation of the Agreement, because the great tragedy about all of this, John, is this, is that I know there are many, many tens of thousands of good, decent Unionists, Protestant people in the North, who want to work with me, and who know that I want to work them to build a new future for all of us. The difficulty is that the rejectionists within Unionism, led by Paisley and Donaldson, have now effectively turned David Trimble, to use Donaldson's words, on to their ground. Now these people are full of people who are not really concerned about the issue of decommissioning at all, these are people who are opposed to equality, these are people who are opposed, not just to having Sinn Fein in a power-sharing government, they're also opposed to the SDLP, because they believe in majority rule, they want to keep the RUC to themselves, they want the British Army on the streets, and all they are offering up to the rest of us, is a diet of misery for the next thirty years. HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, thank you very much indeed.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.