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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Doctor Mowlam, good news,
is this what we're going to hear today, or on Tuesday rather from Keith
Hellawell, and from you I daresay?
MO MOWLAM: Well, what you will hear is
that we have a ten-year strategy in place and we are beginning to make
progress. Drug addiction is a problem that isn't solved in weeks or months,
it takes time and what you'll hear from Keith and from others is that we
have the strategy in place and we are beginning to make progress. Let
me give you two quick examples. One is that in terms of what we call drug
treatment, testing and treatment orders, where young people if they're
taken into custody for drugs and taken to court can choose not to go to
prison but can go on a drug treatment scheme. Now if they do that we,
on the pilot's we've done about eighty per cent success rate of them not
going back. Now with that we're going to roll that out across the country
along with rest referrals which happens at the bail stage, again we've
got a pilot on that and some incredible results. So those are very clear
results. Another good example is that we're beginning to do better with
co-ordination between our intelligence, our police, our customs. To this
year we had a thirty-three per cent increase in what we managed to seize
before it came in, that was about a million pound's worth, and across Europe
we're working - we're working very hard with our European neighbours to
seek, because drugs cross boundaries and we've go to stop them coming in
to all European countries and between us stopped forty-three tonnes of
coke and fourteen tonnes of heroin in Europe last year. So we're beginning
to make progress, it's not quick, we're not complacent, we've got a long
way to go but we are beginning with the structure in place of drug action
teams in every district council area, with joined up teams between home,
office and other departments of Health and Education.
We've got a wonderful
scheme happening called Positive Futures where we've taken money from -
that we've confiscated from traffickers, we've recycled it back into a
programme for young people so they don't have to take the peer group pressure
of drugs on the street, truancy etcetera, policy in the round that says
in conjunction with local football teams, basket-ball, baseball, young
kids are being taken off the streets and on to a positive future. We've
got a wonderful one on Teesside called Reach for Success, and I know it's
working because many of the kids that I used to see on the streets in some
of my poorest neighbourhoods in my constituency, I now go and see how
Reach for Success is doing and they come up to me and say: Hey, look what
I'm doing. And you know that the one thing that addicts often lack is confidence
in the feelings that they're doing something they can respect themselves
for. It's wonderful.
HUMPHRYS: I want to touch on several
of those things later, but you mention heroin and cocaine in that answer.
Is part of the reason why you think you're beginning to get somewhere
now that you seem to be, the Government seems to be taking a slightly different
approach towards drugs, and that's to say no longer trying to pretend that
all drugs heroin and cocaine, are the same as all other drugs, cannabis,
softer drugs for instance. Is this part of what's going on here?
MOWLAM: No. Are you implying in
some way John that our strategy, the ten year strategy has changed. The
ten year strategy is always applied to all drugs, but what there was, was
an emphasis on the hard drugs, the killers, heroin and cocaine. So that
emphasis hasn't changed but if , I think that you're probably referring
to our cream announcement this week where we said that in the night-clubs
of this country the Just Say No policy, which has never been ours, is being
expanded to provide information, because if young people don't listen
to the arguments about not taking drugs, but go ahead in clubs and do so,
it seems to me practical common sense that you put leaflets out saying
these are the impacts of that. That's what we're doing.
HUMPHRYS: But it's gone a bit further
than that hasn't it. I mean Keith Hellawell himself said in October:
I've never thought if you take cannabis you end up injecting heroin and
one of your own colleagues, whose son tragically died as a result of taking
drugs, said Just Say No doesn't work, I wish it did. I mean this does
imply a very clear difference in emphasis.
MOWLAM: No. It says Just Say No
has never been our policy. It was the Tories'. I was listening to one
of the Tory ministers on the telly this morning, it seems not to be theirs
anymore, but it has never been ours. Ours has always been, you have to
deal with the problem in the round, poor neighbourhoods, crime, poor housing
leads to problems where people are more exposed to drugs. What we have
to do is make sure that we deal with the root causes which we are trying
to do, and one of the main aspects of dealing with the drug problem is
better treatment.
HUMPHRYS: But there is another
aspect isn't there, and that is that many people feel there should be a
slightly different approach. I mean the Daily Mail did a survey, and that
wouldn't surprise you I daresay as much as it would surprise anybody else.
I mean Daily Mail readers and here we are saying, six out of ten of them
saying that the personal use of cannabis should not be treated as a criminal
offence
MOWLAM: Yes, but two points. The
first is that we haven't changed our strategy. We have always had bits
that say we've got to deal with the reality on the ground. That is why
Just Say No is not the only one, we're talking about education, we now
have eighty-six per cent of our secondary schools in a drug programme,
seventy-five per cent of our Primaries with a good preventative message,
and in addition to that, we have always focussed on cocaine and heroin
as the big killers and we treat cannabis as a drug that is part of the
drugs that must be dealt with, but we are acknowledging the fact that it
may not be an addictive process but the scientific evidence is not yet
available to suggest that some people say the cannabis leads to taking
heroin. Well, it could be that the pusher who gives people cannabis finds
that heroin - tells them heroin is three pounds cheaper, why not try that?
So we don't know the causal factors, but what we're making very clear
is our policy will be based on factual scientific evidence, and if that
changes we'll look at it. But that goes for the area you're talking about.
HUMPHRYS: But I mean we used to
be told that one whiff of wacky baccy meant you were going to end up injecting
heroin in you know, the next five years or something. That isn't accepted
any longer as you say, and you might even argue might you not, that one
whiff of wacky baccy or whatever you want to call the stuff is better than
to pluck a figure out of the air - fourteen pints of beer?
MOWLAM: Er - Far be from me - no,
let's be clear that I think the wacky baccy one whiff ending in heroin
has always been an over-statement. We base our policies on scientific
fact and evidence and we don't base it on that. Your second point that
there are damaging effects of alcohol, amphetamines is absolutely true
and the effects of long-term addiction to alcohol are much worse than the
evidence available now, although it's not conclusive, on the long-term
effects of cannabis.
HUMPHRYS: So shouldn't we make
it a little bit more explicit than we have done then as a matter of public
policy?
MOWLAM: Well I think we are making
it explicit that we concentrated on heroin and cocaine but that we don't
condone the smoking of cannabis. It is illegal, but as I say we are looking
at the facts and we base our policy on evidence and facts, and if it changes
we'll look at it. We're looking at the moment, let me say John in Europe,
where there's a whole host of different approaches being taken by European
countries, that as you said at the beginning, are suffering from young
people addicted to drugs, but not as high as ours, and they're trying a
whole host of things, some are tougher than ours, their policies are tougher
than ours, others are looking at legalisation, others are looking at decriminalisation.
HUMPHRYS: But you don't need to
go to Europe in a sense, do you. I mean, you can look here, where you
see different police forces with completely different attitudes. I mean
you said you don't condone, but what I was suggesting, not condoning it,
one would hardly expect a Cabinet Minister to sit here and say, I think
it's a jolly good idea to go out and get a spliff after the programme or
something. But it's a question of how you approach it, isn't it. And
we have some Chief Constables saying, yes I take it seriously, we have
others saying absolutely no. We had the Chief Constable of Cumbria, Colin
Phillips, saying I wouldn't do anything if I saw cannabis being smoked,
it is inevitable in due course that legalisation will happen. Well now
this is a Chief Constable in this country.
MOWLAM: Yes and he's not the first.
And the Runciman Report made the point exactly the same as Colin Phillips.
HUMPHRYS: Did you approve of the
Runciman Report?
MOWLAM: I think it was a very useful
report, but the overall response of the government were rejection of certain
recommendations and not of others, but I thought she'd done a very good
job. But let me say yes there are different interpretations of the law
in different parts of the country, which I think is very unhelpful, but
we're looking at the research, we're looking at the evidence, we're looking
at the material that is available so that we can see which is the best
way forward. The scientific evidence on addiction of cannabis that people
say it happens, with cannabis, that they do end up addicted...
HUMPHRYS: ...some say, others don't.
MOWLAM: ...some say, others don't.
We're looking at that evidence. We're looking at the evidence from other
countries and as Jack Straw said, I think it was yesterday, he says this
very often, we base our present policy on the evidence and facts we have
and if those change we'll look at it.
HUMPHRYS: So if the preponderance
of scientific evidence over the next six months, year, whatever it happens
to be, said on balance, there is no great case to be made for cannabis
use, leading, you know the question that's coming...
MOWLAM: ...I know what's coming...
HUMPHRYS: ...cannabis users leading
to heroin addiction, for instance. The government is perfectly prepared
to say, we will not legalise it, not condone it, but we will stop prosecuting
its use.
MOWLAM: I think the best answer
to that is we've..I've made the position clear that we'll look at the evidence
and facts and I think it best to leave it to the point that that decision
is made. It won't just be made by me...
HUMPHRYS: ...I know but...
MOWLAM: ...it will be made by a
whole host and I think that, I can't answer that now, without having talked
it through with colleagues.
HUMPHRYS: Quite so, but I mean...
MOWLAM: You're asking me to pre-judge
the outcome of what I've just said.
HUMPHRYS: Well, not really because
there would be no point, would there, in pursuing this approach, in other
words saying we are now going to take a very serious look. I mean, until
now let's be honest about it, until now, the approach of governments has
been to say, cannabis bad, forget it. We're going to prosecute its use
and it's..and all the rest of it and that's that. No arguing about it.
MOWLAM: And that is our position
now.
HUMPHRYS: But, but your position
has changed as I understand you this morning to this extent and what you're
saying this morning is we are looking at the scientific evidence here.
MOWLAM: We always have John.
HUMPHRYS: Well no with greatest
respect, I think previous ministers to whom I have spoken have said, now
look, there is absolutely no, this is not a matter of debate even, cannabis
is illegal and it's going to stay illegal and now you're saying
we are looking at the scientific facts, clearly with the implication there
that things may change if the scientific evidence suggests a change in
course.
MOWLAM: But I don't see your first
two points as contradictory. You're trying to make this point that we're
different, we've shifted. When you say that we are staying...that cannabis
stays illegal, it does. The ten-year strategy stays in place.
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
MOWLAM: But you wouldn't expect
every government to ignore, when you make policy on the basis of facts
and scientific research, we do that with GM..
HUMPHRYS: Well, fine, exactly....
MOWLAM: ...we do it with drugs,
we do it across the board.
HUMPHRYS: ...well in that case...
MOWLAM: ...we're not a closed government
to new ideas, but it doesn't mean that any decision has been made and it
doesn't mean that I can pre-judge any review of the facts now...
HUMPHRYS: ...no, I fully understand
that, but the point I am really trying to make is this, clearly the public
mood has changed, there's no doubt about that is there, the public attitude
has changed, every single poll tells that is the case and indeed the police
attitudes have changed, that also is quite clear. Given all of that and
indeed many political attitudes have changed if you talk to people privately
as opposed ...so given all of that, isn't it now time to say, bearing in
mind that you are prepared to listen very seriously to scientific evidence.
Isn't it time to say, let's have another look at the possibility of some
sort of Commission, a Royal Commission, or whatever it may be, to consider
the issue of soft drug use.
MOWLAM: I don't think there's a
point for a Royal Commission. We've had the select committee of the Lords,
we've had the Runciman Report, I think a Royal Commission is a waste of
space because we've had commissions looking at it, and I think we ought
to just look at the evidence of which is coming from Europe, which is coming
from research being done here and in many other countries and that is what
we should use for the basis of policy making. Now, that's what we do in
a lot of policy areas and it's nothing very different.
HUMPHRYS: But you're keeping an
open mind, I mean that's the essence of this.
MOWLAM: Well, if I say I'm keeping
an open mind, it'll be portrayed as we're changing policy, if I don't say
I've got an open mind, it'll be portrayed as we're not listening. We do
what we do in all policy areas, which is look at the facts, look at the
evidence and keep an ongoing review taking place and if it changes radically,
we'll clearly look at what's said.
HUMPHRYS: You talked about testing
and treatment earlier. One of the problems seems to be that pretty well
everybody who now comes into contact with the law in one way or another,
not if you've got a parking fine or something, but the criminal law, gets
treated, gets tested and then maybe with a bit of luck later, will get
treated. It can take a very very long time indeed even for the assessment
properly to take place, wouldn't it again be sensible to distinguish between
hard and soft drugs here. There is not a great deal of point in testing
somebody for cannabis, apart from anything else cannabis stays in the blood
for a very long time indeed, shouldn't you be taking a slightly different
approach here as well.
MOWLAM: Well, I think it's up to
the prison services around the country that now have a variety of programmes
in place and they will, they'll make their own priorities in terms of the
resources they have. So if they have so many treatment units, they will
then use them accordingly to the level of demand they have. And they will
make their own distinguishes...distinctions between different drugs, different
drug...different drugs that people come into prison with. But the underlying
problem we have in this area, whether it be people being tested in prisons,
or people referring themselves or their doctor, or self-referral in communities,
is we don't have enough beds, your first point.
HUMPHRYS: Yes.
MOWLAM: Now is some areas of the
country we do. Some, there aren't waiting lists, in other parts of the
country there are. Now we've just responded to this by, we treat I guess,
latest estimates I've seen is sixty-thousand people we treat. Now, the
demand that we have as far as we count people walking in off the streets,
etcetera, they don't walk in off too many streets in the same areas, as
there's different units, but it's about a hundred thousand. We've just
put ninety-four million in place, so that the treatment can increase for
prisons and across the country and that should mean another thirty-thousand
treatments being available. It doesn't match the hundred thousand but
that should deal with what is a serious problem at the moment, that somebody
wants to be referred and the treatment isn't available. By the middle
of next year I hope to be able to say to you, if I'm still here doing this,
which I won't be, that this is a problem of the past.
HUMPHRYS: Keith Hellawell wants
to see many more people tested and he talked about politics as well and
he said why not ministers, that should include everybody, himself and indeed
he said the Cabinet, "we mean everyone" I quote from him. Good idea?
MOWLAM: I think random testing
on a voluntary basis at the place of work is not a handicap, but if it's
voluntary and random then it's for people themselves to choose.
HUMPHRYS: Would you go along with
that idea for yourself. I mean popping on Tuesday morning and having a
quick test for whatever it is?
MOWLAM: Yeah of course but that
wasn't the point of it. The point of it was to do what we can be it at
the workplace, be it the education at the schools, be it prisons, be it
confiscating the health authorities. That we do everything we can to tackle
a really serious problem which isn't going to have a uni-causal origins,
we've got to do whatever we can to cut the drug population down. I think
it would do for drug and drink in the workplace, I think there are certain
occupations where it is more necessary. People who drive, our fire-fighters,
ambulance fighters, police. I think that would be random, voluntary, but
it would have some use.
HUMPHRYS: ...and MPs because we
see from The Sunday Times this morning that apparently you've all been
snorting cocaine in the loos and all that. I say you've all been - present
company excepted of course. A slight exaggeration I grant you...
MOWLAM: ...a gross exaggeration...
HUMPHRYS: ..they did find evidence
of cocaine in some of the loos at Westminster..
MOWLAM: ..they found evidence in
one loo and as I understand it from what I've read but I haven't read the
full detail, two lines as it's called. Now I don't consider that you can
say they've all been snorting coke in the House of Commons, there's some
evidence that somebody was, we don't even know it was an MP. But if that
means that random testing would help solve the problem, I would support
random voluntary testing.
HUMPHRYS: What's the point of voluntary,
if you've been doing it you won't agree to be tested will you?
MOWLAM: No, but if people aren't
tested and it's quite clear that they are outside of it, then I think signals
will be given. What we are trying to do is get a balance between the individual
freedom that people have to make choices in their own lives and do what
they want and at the same time do what we can to stop a serious problem
with addiction which kills. We are focussing on young people but it goes
throughout the age groups, we want to see what we can do to help. We are
doing a lot internationally too, not just co-operating with countries.
I've spent..a visit to Columbia twice recently because that's our main,
seventy four to seventy five per cent of our coke and much more of that
of our heroin comes from Columbia and we are trying hard to see what we
can do to support Columbia in trying to cut supply to help them with their
army, their police force...
HUMPHRYS: They want more money
don't they, they want help from people like us, our country, we're not
going to give it to them are we?
MOWLAM: No, what they want, I mean
they've got a lot of money from America. What they need is help in the
talks because you are not going to make progress with the drugs until you
get peace, so there's a whole host of areas and we are helping not by throwing
money at the problem but by talking to the government, helping with the
peace talks, helping by suggesting individuals that could talk to their
generals, to help in the Army. We are trying to put practical changes
on the ground, we have some money in Europe and Europe is committed to
helping in countries like Columbia that produce the drugs for everybody
in Europe and we may put some European money in. But, we as a country
are trying to get..the money from Europe will be, if you can get the campesinos
and the peasants to stop growing coke and to stop growing poppies you have
to give them something else. So we are looking at alternative economic
packages so that their lives aren't dependant on guerrilla threats to keep
growing those drugs.
HUMPHRYS: Mo Mowlam, thank you
very much indeed.
MOWLAM: Thank you very much John.
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