JOHN HUMPHRYS:                Seamus Mallon, the process, 
obviously, is dangerously stalled as we speak and it does seem that you, 
as far as policing is concerned, you hold the key to getting it started 
again.  Do you accept that?

MALLON:                    Well I believe and I  have 
always believed our party has said it consistently, policing is key in 
this whole equation.  It's key not just because of its factor within the 
community because of this central part of the Good Friday Agreement, it 
derived from the Good Friday Agreement and because it is so key, because 
it is so crucial, that is the reason why we must get all of the arrangements 
right.  Now would it were the position that after the legislation in Westminster 
that everything had been dealt with.  Unfortunately for tactical reasons 
the government left some of those areas undecided in a way which I think 
was very unsatisfactory and the implementation plan that will follow that 
legislation and mirror it, that still has to be decided fully and it is 
within that type of ambit that our party is trying to get the best type 
of situation because we know and we know very clearly despite the pressure 
and despite some of the propaganda there's only going to be one opportunity 
of getting this very crucial element right and that is now.
                        
HUMPHRYS:                    And it seems that you 
have two sets of objections:  If I can put them this way - principled and 
practical.  They will seem to many people not familiar perhaps with the 
situation in Northern Ireland, they will seem very minor, looked at from 
this perspective.  I mean if you look at the principled objections - you 
don't like the cap badge, the fact that there is no national symbol, nationalist 
symbol on the cap badge.  You don't like the title - Royal Ulster Constabulary 
to be included in the title deeds of the police force.  They will seem 
to many people not to be worth risking this whole process for.

MALLON:                    But we're not doing that. 
 The reality is that those were matters that were recommended in the Pattern 
report.  Pattern was very and absolutely clear about those.  He said exactly 
what should be done.  Now unfortunately those were pre-empted in terms 
of the legislation by the way in which the legislation was drafted.  And 
you know you may say, and I would agree with you, that at the end of the 
day, those aren't very important key strategic matters but if you're trying 
to change the involvement in a highly political situation here with the 
overtones that policing has, then those are the public manifestations for 
young people who might be joining the police force, that is the public 
manifestation of change that they will see.  They will not go into the 
detail of legislation, they will know what they see in relation to police 
stations, in relation to symbols.  And I put it to you this way and I put 
it consistently to the British Government - there are matters of great 
substance that have to be resolved. 
                        
                               These matters of 
symbols are crucially important in their manifestation to people that there 
is a change, that there is a new police service and it is a type of police 
service that young people in the nationalist community can identify with. 
 Now that's what I'm asking people to realise.  That is one element of 
it and I believe if we could get a position where there is agreement about 
the policing board, I believe that in effect we can possibly, possibly 
have those matters resolved.  But there are other substantive serious matters 
deriving from the gaps in the legislation.  Those must be dealt with too. 
 We want to get them done now and I'll tell you exactly why we want to 
get them done now, because the worst thing that could possibly happen in 
the type of fluid political situation we have is for this all to stall 
or to hit the rocks in six months' time, eight months' time, five months' 
time because there would be no way back, policing would be enormously damaged, 
the political process would take a hit, a huge hit in relation to this 
and we would not get the policing issue resolved.  So what I again repeat 
- let's get down, as we are doing with the British Government and with 
the other parties, let's see how we can resolve these matters so that when, 
if the SDLP can go onto that policing board, it does it for good, it does 
it for real and does it in such a way that it can effect the change we 
need.
                        
HUMPHRYS:                    You say, 'does it for 
good' but could you not join the board for a trial period, let's say three 
months, and say, 'look, these are the things we want sorted out because 
there are practical things as well as the principled things that talked 
about there.  If they are not sorted out during that time then we will 
leave'.  So you can test their will if you like and if you're satisfied 
that everything is going to be fine.  But you run great risks at this stage 
by not joining the board at all don't you?  That's the danger.

MALLON:                    But let me tell you the 
danger of the course that you're possibly suggesting.  It is this:  That 
will do exactly to the process of policing what the Ulster Unionist Party 
has done to the political process.  Pulling out, leaving it, threatening 
to leave it, weakening it, that is not an option in my view, because that 
would have an enormously damaging effect on the psychology of policing. 
 It would actually, in my view wreck the entire political process and it 
would damage the collectivity that's needed within the yes parties to actually 
sustain the Good Friday Agreement.  Now it is a very easy option for the 
SDLP, it's very attractive you know because, you'd get yourself out from 
under the pressure and you have some kind of escape hatch.  But I happen 
to believe, and I take this matter so seriously, I believe there isn't 
an escape hatch on this.  I think policing is so central to any society, 
that especially a society like ours that's divided, that in effect there 
cannot be the luxury of escape hatches, one minute we're out, one minute 
we're threatening to leave, one minute we leave, then how do we get back? 
 How do you get things back on the rails?  And I think if there's one good 
thing, and I hope there'll be many good things come out of the present 
negotiations is the realisation by others, and I include the government's, 
that that option is one actually which would be totally debilitating for 
the political parties, certainly for the political process, and most definitely 
for the prospects of good policing.

HUMPHRYS:                    But it sounds from what 
you're saying as though there is the very real possibility that this Board, 
the Police Board, will not be set up by April.  Is that what you're suggesting?

MALLON:                    Well, that's a matter of 
how we get the resolution within the next week, ten days.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, what's your view. 
 I mean, do you believe it's going to happen, at this stage?

MALLON:                    It could happen.  I want 
it to happen quickly, because I know the steps that are involved here, 
in terms of getting stability within the entire political process, I want 
that to happen. We have put, I believe, very reasonable requests to the 
Prime Minister and the Secretary of State, we are waiting for their response 
to it, and when we get that response we know how seriously they are taking 
the reality of our position.  Let me put it this way again, the easiest 
thing would have been for the SDLP is at any point, maybe two months, three 
months ago, say, 'yeah sure, here are three people for the Policing Board, 
but if things don't go well, we'll take them off, and we have that type 
of option.'  Now I don't believe that's an option.  We want to do this 
seriously, we want to do it well, and we want to do it for good, for that 
reason, we must get it right.

HUMPHRYS:                    Seamus Mallon, thank 
you very much indeed.