BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 28.01.01

Film: IAIN WATSON Looks at whether Labour and the Conservatives are boxing themselves in on tax. What happens if the Government needs more money to pay for public services?



IAIN WATSON: Just as a swallow signals the arrival of summer, the political poster tells you there's an election on its way. But for those who thought it might all be different this time, disappointment awaits. At the next election, like 1997, tax and how much it should be cut, will be a key issue. The Tories feel that tax cuts is the strongest card, even though they've had to convince a more sceptical electorate that these won't be at the expense of key public services. Labour still feel vulnerable on tax. Many of their planned improvements have yet to be delivered, so people are asking where their money is going. Indeed, in the wake of the fuel protests, Labour may feel less confident now than they did in 1997 on the tax issue. And with tax rates set to play such a central part in the next General Election campaign, future governments may find it more difficult than ever to convince people to stump up more tax when it's needed LORD PLANT: I think given that there is this public resistance which we acknowledge, it's then very important that we try to chip away at that, to show the inexorable link that there is between taxation and higher levels of public service. GILES RADICE: Obviously a Labour government has to be very mindful of being criticised for sort of ...being automatically increasing taxes because that's the traditional right wing attack on a left of centre government WATSON: The Nicholls family live in South East London. Father Phil is about to take their daughter, Lily, to school; his wife Kim is a childminder. They voted Labour in 1997, believing that public services would get better. Some Labour backbenchers argue that families like these would pay higher taxes to fund the improvements they want to see MARTIN SALTER: Certainly my experience as a deputy leader of Reading Borough Council for many years and as a member of parliament, is that people will tolerate levels of taxation and in some cases quite high levels of taxation, if they feel that it's being spent sensibly, being spent wisely, and being spent on services that matter to them. WATSON: The school run is almost complete. But Labour still has some way to go to deliver the improvements to public services promised in last summer's comprehensive spending review. Phil Nicholls is happy with the education his daughter Lily receives at the local primary school, but wants even more to be spent on the next generation. He's wary about paying tax up front with so few benefits yet to be seen on the ground PHIL NICHOLLS: You know pour the money in for the standards to get better. You know that's great. But when you just think oh we're pouring the money in, millions and millions and nothing is really improving, they haven't got a real strategy about it, I think that's quite dangerous. DAVID RUFFLEY: It is better for ordinary families to keep more of the money that they earn to spend or to save, as they choose, not as the state chooses and I think that is a lesson that any Chancellor would be very stupid to ignore, particularly on the income tax side of things. That is the most visible example of the state taking your money. WATSON: Labour can't afford to give the impression that their natural instinct is to put taxes up, for fear of handing over the initiative in the General Election to the Tories. So just as in 1997 symbolic commitments not to increase direct tax rates seem set to stay - even for the better off RADICE; The Labour government has committed itself to 40% high rate over the life time of the last parliament and I think they're probably likely to do the same for the next parliament and there is an argument for continuity in taxation. I mean what it said, if you like to the middle classes of England that we are not going to be a punitively tax raising party. That we're going to escape from the idea of a Labour government that we're a tax and spend government. WATSON: So boldness on taxation won't be on the Labour menu for the next election. But far from looking for continuity in tax, they are going for cuts. At a conference in London yesterday, the Chancellor signalled more clearly than ever before that there will be targeted tax cuts to help working families in his March budget. And prominent Labour backbenchers are saying done in the right way, this will help sustain the support of Labour's core vote, as well as providing symbolic comfort to middle England, too RADICE: I think that the government is right to say there is room for targeted tax cuts. There is no doubt that the low paid, the less well off groups in society, there are things you can do, in the tax system, and the 10p rate could possibly be extended so there are things that can be done WATSON: It's a day of reckoning for the Nicholls. They like to know exactly how much they've got to spend. Similar calculations are going on in Downing Street - numbers 10 and 11 - to see how taxes can be cut without giving the impression they're trying to buy votes. Modest tax cuts for the least well off is thought to be the Chancellor's favoured option, while the Prime Minister is said to want to see a wider range of people feeling the benefit of tax reductions. ANDREW DILNOT: I don't think we necessarily need to assume that a targeted tax cut is a tax cut that will only affect a small group of people and that only that one small group might gain. A targeted tax cut just means something that's targeted at a group that you want to help, we've had targeted tax cuts aimed at motorists, at small businesses, at families with children, at the low paid, all of those are possibilities this time round. MATTHEW TAYLOR: Labour are backing away from this idea of general tax cuts and instead talking about targeted tax cuts. Well what's a target, it appears to be families, it appears to be children, it appears to be pensioners. It's just another way of describing an attempt to address the Conservative agenda of the tax burden WATSON: Kim Nicholls and her young companions, Isobel and Joseph, are making one of their regular trips to the local clinic. The Liberal Democrats say that, unlike the other main parties, they'll support the Health Service by raising the top rate of tax and give more to schools by putting a penny on the basic rate - if needed. They say openness with the electorate works and Labour's caution on tax and spending since 1997 will cost them support this time round. TAYLOR: I think Labour are in real difficulties, they're not delivering on public services and because they won't talk about income tax for historic reasons, they've been forced to use indirect taxes, which have actually hit the poorest hardest. And this has disillusioned traditional Labour voters enormously who are either sitting at home or turning to the Liberal Democrats WATSON: Recent polls suggest that Labour's core vote aren't exactly enthusiastic about turning out at the next election, but support IS holding up in the key marginals which Labour won in 1997. The party aren't too keen to give the Tories the tax issue in those seats. So Labour, for reasons of political expediency, are boxed in on income tax .But their favoured path after the 1997 General Election - allowing less visible taxes to take the strain - has proved a rather rockier road recently. Voters are now looking well beyond what Labour says and does on income tax alone. Last year's petrol protests exacted concessions on fuel duty that the Chancellor would rather not have made and he'll be keen not to make any similar commitments in the manifesto. But his strategy of tapping more and more sources of revenue, other than just income tax, is under pressure. People have become more aware than ever of the taxes they're shelling out. KIM HOWELLS: Your petrol is high and I begrudge, one thing I begrudge is filling up the tank. I use the car Monday to Friday, just doing the school run going to a few local toddler groups and possibly between twenty and twenty five pounds a week. And that's not really going anywhere as such. DAVID RUFFLEY MP: These things are now very very visible and there could well be and I think it's already started, a problem with the Chancellor's reputation. But those are problems that are added to when you look at how little room he's got now, for increasing tax almost anywhere. The stealth taxes, the gaffe has been blown for Gordon, he can't really do that again. JOHN WHITING: I think the fuel duty protests and all the analysis that was done about that time, which showed how much of a gallon, litre of petrol went to the government in the form of taxation, has really got home to a lot of people. It's also made them think well, what about that bottle of whisky, what about the food that I buy, everything else, how much am I paying in taxation. WATSON: No-one likes paying tax, but raising money from so-called 'sinful' products is often seen as fair game. So taxing cigarettes and booze attracts less resistance than taxing petrol. Cars are seen as essential, not luxury items, these days. But with both alcohol and cigarette duty higher here than on the continent, smuggling is rife. So the limit may have been reached in taxing our more pleasurable pursuits. MARTIN SALTER MP: There is a ceiling that is.. that will be reached, probably is reached already, in respect of that particular aspect of indirect taxation, because obviously if it starts to fuel the black economy, then the Treasury ends up cutting its nose to spite its face. WATSON: So Labour may have to find another way out of the tax dilemma and become less dependent on traditional sources of revenue. With relatively low rates of corporation tax, business may seem like an easy hit - especially as companies don't get a vote at election time. But politically, that could signal the end of the line for the New Labour brand, and practically, could encourage multinationals to move their investments elsewhere WHITING: Living in a global economy means that you have to have regard to the fact that your tax base - in other words, the people, the businesses that you are trying to tax - might suddenly start to disappear. WATSON: Labour are tackling the tax issue for maximum electoral advantage. But there are fears that they are perhaps playing to the gallery of public opinion rather than trying to change attitudes towards taxation. Certainly with a big budget surplus, there's no immediate need to raise taxes in order to pay for better public services. Indeed the Chancellor would claim he's banished boom and bust for ever. but there are those within Labour's own ranks who say the next election should be used to dispel the notion you can get something for nothing. Otherwise they could get into trouble in a downturn and bequeath future governments a very unwelcome legacy. PLANT: There does come a point when for the future, we've got to say, look, we want high quality health care for all our citizens. We've got to invest in high quality education if were going to be competitive in the world. There is the money to do that now, but in different economic circumstances, never the less we should have some kind of under pinning through the tax system, to ensure that we're going to maintain that sort of quality of provision into the future. DILNOT: At the moment we're going to be getting better public services, higher public spending, by increasing the amount of borrowing, the reason we can do that is at the moment we've got such a large surplus so we can afford to increase public spending more quickly than taxes, but you can't do that forever. WATSON: Reassuring voters such as Phil Nicholls, who backed Labour in 1997, is a high priority for the government - especially after the events of the past week. Labour strategists have no doubt had some sleepless nights and the idea that the government might risk making the moral case for taxation at this election, has been consigned to the realms of fantasy. In doing so, the option for future governments to argue that better public services really do come at a price could now be closed off.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.