BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 04.02.01

Film: TERRY DIGNAN reports that top-up tuition fees for university students may be unavailable after the next election.



TERRY DIGNAN: In higher education governments of all colours have gone for rapid growth. But politicians haven't been so keen on providing the money to pay for the vast increase in student numbers. That's put our university system under unprecedented strain. And that means that funding is top of the agenda at the latest meeting of Vice-Chancellors in England. Some are now demanding that universities should be allowed to set their own tuition fees. No one here expects Tony Blair or William Hague to find more money for universities by promising at the next election to put up taxes. So the leaders of our institutions of higher learning are looking at another, no-less controversial, suggestion - asking the better off to make a bigger financial contribution to the cost of their university degree. Even though politicians run scared of the idea, some warn there may be no alternative. PROFESSOR SIR HOWARD NEWBY: These days parties really don't want to say, vote for us in an election and we'll put up taxes, in order to give more money to universities. I don't think we see that as a realistic proposition. DIGNAN: After four hard years of Labour, these Vice-Chancellors may now have something to look forward to. From April, Labour intends spending an extra ten per cent on their universities over a three year period. BARONESS BLACKSTONE: In this next funding round there's another one point seven billion pounds, that is a lot of extra money, as well as another billion for research. For the first time since 1986 the actual amount of money that universities will have per student is going up, so I think that's an enormous step forward. PROFESSOR TIME O'SHEA: It doesn't get us back to the sort of funding the universities had fifteen years ago and if you just do an audit, and you just look at it and see the state of university buildings, the state of salaries, that ten per cent will help, but it will not get us where we need to be. PROFESSOR GILLIAN SLATER: Many universities have buildings that are falling down for lack of maintenance. So there is a long way to go, in terms of increased funding. PROFESSOR JOHN TARRANT: It varies a lot from subject to subject, institution to institution, but in my institution the average staff student ratio is now almost twice as bad as it was about ten years ago. DIGNAN: A university education is no longer the privilege of a few. Forty years ago less than two hundred thousand students were in higher education, just five per cent of young adults. By 1987 the proportion was up to fifteen per cent. There were a million full time students when Tony Blair came to power. Today thirty-six per cent of young people are in higher education - Labour is aiming for fifty per cent. But the money going into higher education has failed to match the massive increase in undergraduate numbers. In nineteen-eighty-five average spending per university student was almost eight-thousand-five-hundred pounds. By nineteen-ninety-seven - with the polytechnics having gained university status - the money was being spread more thinly and the average spend per student was down to just over four- thousand-seven-hundred-and-ninety pounds. The decline in funding has continued under Labour although that's about to end. PROFESSOR ALAN SMITHERS: One of the mysteries to me is why successive governments have seemed determined to destroy higher education as we knew it. The amount of funding universities receive has been reduced by about forty per cent over the past decade. At the same time they've been asked to undertake massive expansion, this has had all sorts of consequences in terms of the quality of student experience, the amount of money available for libraries, for general facilities for cleaning and portering and so on. DIGNAN: The Government expects the older research-intensive institutions to compete on a global scale for the best students, academics and research. Yet these are the universities - whose courses tend to be the ones heaviest in demand amongst undergraduates - that often feel hardest hit by the decline in funding. SIR COLIN CAMPBELL: The big universities in the States have access to hundreds of millions of dollars or billions of dollars and we can't match that. Now if we want to really invest in heavy, expensive science as we do as a country, to be internationally competitive, we need access to much greater sources of funding. DIGNAN: While the universities want more investment for research, technology and teaching, the Liberal Democrats' would rather concentrate help on students, especially those from poorer backgrounds. They'd abolish tuition fees and re-introduce maintenance grants. DR EVAN HARRIS MP: What we would expand significantly is the number of people from poorer backgrounds who are bright, who are able to benefit from higher education, who have been prevented from applying or staying in the system by the government's mean-minded decision, which wasn't in their manifesto, to make them even poorer by cutting their grants. DIGNAN: The Conservatives say their policies will address universities' needs. But not through higher taxes or spending. They'd release higher education from dependence on Government funding. Every university would be eligible for a lump sum endowment raised from the proceeds of future privatisations. But the Tories concede it would take many years for all institutions of higher education to benefit from this policy. THERESA MAY MP: The sums required to endow universities are significant and it will take time to provide for all universities, but I think the university sector needs a new approach, the funding arrangements we have currently are not working for all our universities and we need to move our universities on to a new approach where they can rely on endowed funds and they can be free to bring in more private sector income. SLATER: The sums involved would need to be very very large because I don't believe it will be acceptable to provide endowment funding for ten universities, and leave the other ninety without. DIGNAN: Universities want the politicians to be realistic about funding higher education. If higher taxes or a bigger share of public spending are ruled out that leaves the option of extracting more money from those who benefit from higher education. And that could mean allowing universities to set their own tuition fees. All students in the UK - except for Scottish students in Scotland - are now sent a bill for tuition to be paid up-front. But only the well-off pay in full, about a thousand pounds. Here at Nottingham, the Vice-Chancellor says students could afford to pay more, given that they stand to benefit considerably from a university education. CAMPBELL: People who can afford it should pay, up to a modest limit. They are beneficiaries to the extent of four-hundred-thousand upwards in their life time, they can afford to pay, they should pay. PROFESSOR SIR HOWARD NEWBY: I think most people now accept that people who go through higher education have some moral obligation to put something back. Our graduates do benefit in terms of employability and higher incomes later in life and of course they do put something back through the tax system but I think also most people would accept that they should make some direct payment as well. DIGNAN: If universities are allowed to set their own fees, that might deter more students from poorer backgrounds. It's why Scotland abolished fees. One answer would be to delay paying until after graduation - with repayments rising only in line with income. PROFESSOR SANDRA BURSLEM: There is I think a real barrier against people from lower socio-economic groups coming in to higher education. That's not justifiable. So I think that we've got to be very careful about how we expect those sorts of students to contribute to their higher education. DIGNAN: But universities like Nottingham say they need the money now. They want to ask for extra up-front payments. Students from poorer backgrounds would be offered scholarships. The burden of paying the extra fees might well fall on middle-income families - which may explain why the Conservatives are against the idea, an attitude which sits oddly with their promise to set universities free. MAY: There is legislation that restricts the fees that universities can charge. I think it's important that endowed universities are on a level playing field and therefore endowed universities, alongside the other universities, will not be able to charge top up fees. UNNAMED MAN: The concept of a transfer function. DIGNAN: Labour, too, believes that the Government, rather than the universities, should continue to decide the amount students should pay in tuition fees - outside Scotland, that is. BLACKSTONE: The Government doesn't think it would be right for them to charge students according to their particular view of what they can afford. It is far better to have a regulated system of fees which we introduced. It is then possible to have a national system that is understood, rather than have a free market where people are confused about what different places are charging. So the government is, in fact, confident that the system that we've introduced is a fair one, it is getting more money into the universities and I wouldn't want to go down the differential top-up fee route. CAMPBELL: I think the hard question is for Baroness Blackstone and her colleagues because they will be asked the question increasingly - are you investing adequately to maintain the universities to be internationally competitive and to give first class education to the brightest of the young generation? Now the answer to that is no, so something will have to give, I think it will give after the election. DIGNAN: In Manchester the Vice-Chancellors who attended the meeting of the Higher Education Funding Council are all members of Universities UK. It has a working party looking at a range of options to increase funding. Even though top-up fees feature prominently, ministers say there's no consensus among Vice-Chancellors in their favour. BLACKSTONE: I think the majority of them are not in favour of top up fees, so I think that the advice that we will get from them will be consistent with the way we view things at present. DIGNAN: But amongst Vice-Chancellors, there's a potential premier league which may not allow the majority of less prestigious universities to make policy on their behalf. UNNAMED MAN: "Ladies and gentlemen." DIGNAN: The top UK universities may grow increasingly frustrated if they're not allowed to exploit their market strength. SMITHERS: There are universities that would be able to attract students because they have many more students than they have places, being able to charge their own fees, to price their own courses, would be a considerable advantage to them in the quality of the higher education they could offer. Universities that aren't able to fill their places at the moment would wonder whether it would be even more difficult in future circumstances. HARRIS: For the government to ignore that threat, not put the funding in that's required, will lead inexorably to top-up fees. Significantly they refuse to rule it out for the whole of the next parliament, they just say they have no plans, that's the same language they used within a year of implementing tuition fees and scrapping grants when they said they have no plans. CAMPBELL: It is established government policy that they're not going to change the position for the time being. But I think after the election, when whichever government has another four or five years to look ahead, they'll have to confront this issue, it's inescapable. DIGNAN: Despite the cuts to university funding over many years, this country remains in the world elite of higher education, but for how much longer? Politicians fear students' parents would be furious if universities introduce top-up fees. Parents could of course demand to pay higher taxes instead, but few Vice-Chancellors take that prospect seriously.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.