BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 11.02.01

Film: The Government hopes the Hammond Inquiry will close the book on the Mandelson affair. But Iain Watson reports that his supporters in the Party believe he can still make a return to top level politics.



IAIN WATSON: When Peter Mandelson was summoned to the Prime Minister's inner sanctum eighteen days ago his opponents assumed he was heading for political oblivion. But this spectre of spin continues to haunt Downing Street and further horrors are on the way - for the first time his political supporters have stepped from the shadows and are telling Tony Blair it's in his own interests not shut out his old ally forever. LORD SAWYER: Give him any portfolio, give him any case to make, and Peter, if he gets behind it, will make it in a, in a manner which is hard to equal in the Parliamentary Labour Party, now from my point of view, in Labour Party politics, this is a big asset, and it's too big to squander. LORNA FITZSIMONS MP: It is very frightening that people are actually starting to think that because the media have pre-judged you, because there is a lynch mob, therefore you're guilty. And we don't allow that either in some of the most severe instances in the criminal justice system, so why are we doing it in politics? WATSON: Just as Peter Mandelson was being dispatched from the cabinet for a second time, Sir Anthony Hammond - a former treasury solicitor who also served at the Home Office - was called in to set up an Inquiry; in the old days, that would have been enough to kill off an inconvenient story. ACTUALITY FROM THE TV SERIES - YES MINISTER JIM: Well at least an Inquiry gives us a little time. HUMPHREY: So does a time bomb. JIM: Haven't you got a disposal squad? HUMPHREY: Disposal squad? JIM: Couldn't we get the independent inquiry to exonerate the department? HUMPHREY: Do you mean rig it? JIM: No, no, no, no, no, no, well, yes. WATSON: So Whitehall inquiries were traditionally designed to conceal more than they revealed - to smooth things over, not shake them up. Whatever New Labour's detractors say about the lack of radicalism, when it comes to inquiries, they've certainly broken the mould. The Hammond inquiry could actually cause more problems than it solves - and heighten, not diminish, party infighting, ahead of a general election. Now Labour may want to talk about education and crime, but when this Inquiry reports, the future of one man will continue to dominate the debate. PHIL WOOLAS MP: We don't know obviously what the inquiry will say - it's possible it will exonerate Peter Mandelson, and if that is the case, I can't see any reason why, after the general election, some time in the future, that he couldn't play a role in government. GORDON PRENTICE MP: I don't think Parliamentary Labour Party would swallow it, I don't think the wider Labour Party would welcome it, no sane person would suggest for one moment that there was any prospect of Peter Mandelson returning to front rank politics in the second term, if we get it, of a Labour Government. WATSON: The Inquiry under Sir Anthony Hammond is due to report to ministers at the end of the month and should throw light on why, or whether Peter Mandelson was right to resign. What's not in doubt is that the Home Office were contacted - either by Peter Mandelson or his officials - when he was minister for the millennium dome, to ask about rules on British citizenship - following a query by the Hinduja brothers. And they just happened to have pledged around a million pounds in sponsorship for the Greenwich folly. What is at issue is whether Peter Mandelson telephoned the relevant Home Office Minister, Mike O'Brien, personally, and then exercised undue pressure to speed up a citizenship application. If Hammond concludes that Peter Mandelson acted dishonourably, then the punishment won't just be personal but political. ANDREW LANSLEY MP: I think that creates a backdrop, alongside other things, in which people think increasingly ill of this government, where they don't trust what they say, where they feel that they came into office claiming they'd uphold the highest standards in public life and they have completely failed to deliver on that. WATSON: But Peter Mandelson is saying through friends that he was browbeaten from office before the facts were established. A memo from his most recent set of officials, at the Northern Ireland office, and leaked last week, threw doubts on the Home Office's account that Peter Mandelson had personally contacted the Immigration Minister Mike O'Brien. So if there's no proof he even phoned the relevant minister, never mind sought to influence him, presumably complete exoneration isn't out of the question. WOOLAS; If it says he acted honourably, and that mistakes were made but not intentionally, then I can't see why after the general election, there shouldn't be no role for him in politics if that is what the inquiry does show. PRENTICE: In the presence of colleagues, I asked Mike and I said to him, "do you have a clear recollection of having this telephone conversation with Peter Mandelson?" and he looked me in the eye and he said "yes." So who do we believe? Mike O'Brien, a well respected Home Office Minister, a solicitor, or Peter Mandelson? WATSON: Well, if Sir Anthony Hammond chooses the latter, then Peter Mandelson's reputation could be restored. But this may have the opposite effect on the Prime Minister if he's seen to have acted as judge and jury before hearing the evidence. LORD SAWYER: As far as I can read, I mean Peter did suggest that the Inquiry should be carried out first, but you know you can see it from both sides here; you can see the kind of panic that would arise in Number Ten at the thought of another kind of possible misdemeanour from Peter - and oh dear me, you know this is the man who resigned once, we reinstated him, and now we're in trouble again. So there would I think be an element of panic about Peter, let's say potentially, being in trouble again. NORMAN BAKER MP: I don't think Mr. Mandelson will be exonerated, its difficult to see how that can occur. If he is exonerated, then that clearly leaves the judgement in the balance as to the role of Alistair Campbell and indeed the Prime Minister who shoved him out of office so quickly on that particular Wednesday morning. WATSON: While Labour sources expect Peter Mandelson to be cleared of influencing the Hindujas citizenship application, they hope the verdict on the telephone call will look like a fudge. Peter Mandelson says he can't recall telephoning the Home Office personally about any possible citizenship application from S. P. Hinduja. But senior Labour sources are confident that Sir Anthony Hammond's inquiry will establish that a telephone call did indeed take place. But ministers don't expect Peter Mandelson to be branded a liar - instead, less damning language could be deployed - perhaps a reference to 'an inadequate recollection of events' or maybe a mention of 'flawed judgment' so not so much a whitewash - more of a grey area. ACTUALITY FROM THE TV SERIES YES MINISTER HUMPHREY It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions, that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member's recollection of them differs violently from every other member's recollection. Consequently we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials. FITZSIMONS: The bottom line is the reason he resigned was Mike O'Brien said he made the phone call and he couldn't recall making the phone call. You know that is so...if you actually...history will look on this as pathetic. The bottom line is the man resigned, one of the chief architects of New Labour resigned over whether he could remember making a phone call just saying I'm inquiring about policy. I mean let's get this into context. LANSLEY: I don't actually think it was so much a matter of whether Peter Mandelson picked up a telephone, the point was that he was engaged in raising an issue with another government department on behalf of somebody from whom he was soliciting sponsorship for the Dome; that was really what it was all about and that breached the rules as far as I'm concerned WATSON: So some people would find a fudge far from satisfactory - but would it be enough to appease Peter Mandelson? Although he's said he would accept the inquiry's findings, his recent off the record briefings seem to have convinced Downing Street of his volatility - any suggestion he's a liar could detonate a political explosion LORD SAWYER: To say that he made a mistake, or he was indiscreet, or he perhaps shouldn't have done something that he did, I think he would probably say: well look, fair enough, and he would apologise for that. But I think that any implication that he purposely set out to tell a lie in order to mislead any, either his colleagues, or the Prime Minister, or civil servants, or anybody else, I think he would find unacceptable. BAKER: It's quite clear that Mr Mandelson will not let this matter rest, and I think that's bad news for Tony Blair and the government, they clearly want him to go quietly, he's not going to do so. PRENTICE: If the media becomes fixated with Peter Mandelson in the run-up to a General Election and that will obscure the real issues, that could do us real damage and I don't pretend that it wouldn't, and I would just hope that Peter Mandelson puts a lid on it WATSON: The Prime Minister has to handle Peter Mandelson with care. Tony Blair has to make it clear that if Sir Anthony Hammond stops short of calling Peter Mandelson a liar, then the door won't be closed forever on his former Cabinet colleague. The hope is that this sort of incentive can keep Peter sweet through a General Election campaign - although any ambiguity over his future status is likely to be exploited gleefully by the opposition parties. But even within Labour's ranks, this could prove controversial. FITZSIMONS: You can't go on persecuting him because you believe somehow he's got a flawed judgement or whatever and if he is innocent then he should be treated as such and be as eligible as anybody for promotion. PRENTICE: I think Peter Mandelson is in some sense in a state of denial, he cannot quite accept the fact that his career has come to an abrupt end, I don't think there's any question at all of rehabilitation RECORDING OF "YES MINISTER": JIM: "But Humphrey, if these revelations are true..." HUMPHREY: "Ah exactly, Minister, IF... You could for instance have discussed the nature of truth. JIM: "The Committee isn't the least bit interested in the nature of truth. They're all MPs!" WATSON: Whatever the results of the inquiry, Peter Mandelson's future will be decided by predominantly political factors. Some Blairites say he's needed to strengthen the Prime Minister's hand against the overweening influence of the Chancellor, Gordon Brown; while his opponents believe that, with the modernising gimmicks behind it, the party can return to the task of appealing to its near-catatonic core vote now that Peter Mandelson has gone PRENTICE: I think even before this happened there was a kind of recalibration taking place, that Mandelson's idea of the project of course was to get really close to the Liberal Democrats, coalition, snuggling up close to them, a kind of centrism which was dressed up in terms of modernity. Now I'd say there's been a kind of stepping back from that and the government now four years into its term is looking at addressing the things that really matter to people in the industrial heartlands, just the whole raft of policies that Peter Mandelson never concerned himself with. WOOLAS: I think what worries me mostly about the affairs surrounding the Peter Mandelson resignation, is the interpretation that somehow or other because Peter Mandelson had gone, that the English public had all of a sudden become Bevanite Socialists. Labour has its majority and has the mandate of the British people because we are the New Labour Party, and if Peter Mandelson's resignation creates a vacuum that will cause us problems in the future and it's very important that we reassert our New Labour credentials WATSON: Most Labour Party members will be delighted that Tony Blair has rid himself of the man they see as his Rasputin. But some of those who played a key role in past General Elections fear that Labour's campaign machine this time round will be less effective as a result. SAWYER: It was very disappointing because he is such an important person to the Labour Party; he's particularly important at Millbank and in a campaign centre - his brain and his ability to get things right inside the Party is probably irreplaceable. I guess most people would say he couldn't come back into government but as you know you should never say never in politics WATSON: The first reaction in Labour's ranks to Peter Mandelson's departure was a near collective sigh of relief; but some won't be breathing quite so easily now. Whatever the conclusions of the Hammond inquiry, when it reports just weeks before an expected General Election - Downing Street may find that the man who was once one of Labour's greatest assets has now become one of its biggest liabilities.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.