BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 25.02.01

Film: Film on the Liberal Democrats tax policies. The Liberal Democrats say they would increase taxes. But do their sums add up or would taxes need to be much higher than they are prepared to admit.



IAIN WATSON: This fine Victorian vessel pioneered passenger trips to the other side of the world back in the days when the Liberals used to form governments. Now, just imagine what might happen if their modern day equivalents, the Liberal Democrats, ever got their hands on the helm of the ship of state. This isn't entirely a fantastic voyage; they're already in coalition in Scotland and Wales. And, they say, if they reach power at Westminster, we would enter a new era of openness and fairness in taxation. BARONESS WILLIAMS OF CROSBY: You have to be absolutely frank with the public, and the public is showing most encouraging signs of being willing to pay tax for what it believes in, even if you're completely open, and say, it's going to mean more money. ANDREW SMITH MP: Theirs is really a 'wish list' approach to politics. It's a menu without prices, their sums don't add up, there's a list of undeliverable spending commitments as long as your arm. WATSON: Think of one policy that you associate with the Liberal Democrats - and it's probably their commitment to put a penny on the basic rate of income tax to improve education. It stands as a proud symbol of the Liberal Democrats' honest dealing, their willingness to tell us that improvements in public services really do come at a price. But voters would be well advised to read the small print. Up until now at least, they've said the penny will imposed 'if necessary.' But perhaps that should be translated as 'if we don't think we have got any hope of winning an election' - because recent events here in Bristol cast doubt as to whether the Liberal Democrats really do have the courage of their convictions. The new 'At Bristol' science exhibition is living proof that exciting experiments don't always go to plan. The city's labour council felt the full force of public disapproval when, in a pioneering referendum, fifty-four per cent voted for no increase in council tax. This, despite dire warnings, that children would find it tough going; a large share of proposed cuts would fall on the education budget unless voters opted to pay more. It's not that surprising to find people don't like paying tax, but this woman's attitude has fascinated political observers. As the leader of the local Liberal Democrats, she too voted against the council tax going up. CLLR BARBARA JANKE: We as responsible councillors cannot ignore the representations that are made to us every year from the citizens of this city saying that they pay too high council tax, they don't get good value for money and they want something done about it. WATSON: The Liberal Democrats say their stance has to be weighed against the fact that public confidence in the Labour council has drained away and in any case, cash from the sale of the municipal airport could fend off the education cuts. But Labour, with a weak, two-seat majority, say the Libdems are motivated by opportunism ahead of May's council elections - their proposal to stave off cuts is taking the mickey. CLLR GEORGE MICKLEWRIGHT; Where the money comes from, nobody knows, it's some sort of pile of magic money which only they have access to, and that's what they propose every year, and it's totally cynical trying to suggest to people that they have it both ways, no increase in taxation but additional spending. And while in some respects that is possible in the very short term in fact you soon run out of money and you're faced with an even bigger council tax than you would have done before. WATSON: Leading lights in the local Conservative party are meeting to discuss their alternative budget for Bristol. The venue is the Clandoger Trow, a dockside pub that's inspired some pretty tall tales in its time. ACTUALITY WATSON: Local legend has it that Robert Louis Stevenson wrote Treasure Island here, but the Tories say it's the Libdems who spin far-fetched yarns these days; their credibility has taken a knock and voters should be suspicious. CLLR PETER ABRAHAM: They try to be all things to all men. But I think the time is coming where the public are beginning to say, hang on, does the figures really add up? And I think we've got a job, in the Conservative Party here, and nationally, of showing very precisely that their figures just don't add up. WATSON: The Liberal Democrats' opponents say all their talk of transparency in taxation is nothing short of fiction. Both Labour and the Tories say the Liberal Democrats evade difficult decisions, not just locally here in Bristol, but nationally. On the surface, everything appears to be clear. They've told us which taxes they'll raise and how the money will be spent. But critics say they are really trying to smuggle through spending plans which don't stand up to close scrutiny. RICHARD OTTAWAY: One 'p' costs the taxpayer roundabout two point eight, two point nine billion pounds in five years time. They say that one 'p' is going to be spent on education, but if you just run through the lists of all their education policies, higher starting salaries for teachers; teachers pay increase of six to ten per cent a year; all teacher trainees to be paid; more classroom assistants in primary schools; abolition of university tuition fees; cut class sizes in primary schools; give teachers the right to non-contact time; nursery education for all three year olds. If you cost all that lot, it comes to six point four billion pounds, which is nearly 3p. WATSON: Apart from education, the Liberal Democrats are planning spending increases in other public services, but what's fact and what's fantasy? The Liberal Democrats have ambitious plans to modernise the health service by the end of the next parliament. Their spending plans would mean: free personal care for the elderly in residential homes; free eye and dental checks; and more hospital staff and beds. But they say most of this - two point four billion pounds in fact - will be paid for by reducing the growth in the drugs bill. But that kind of decision may have unwelcome side effects. CARL EMMERSON: If we pay drug companies less for drugs now they may decide to research less drugs for the future. So this would have a cost in terms of what drugs get developed to cure which diseases in future. Secondly, the drug companies employ a lot of people and carry out a lot of research in the UK. If they get rewarded less for that work here, they may decide to go overseas. WATSON: The Liberal Democrats have bountiful increases in store, for some, in their spending plans for social security: Pensioners would get extra cash as a direct result of taxing those who earn more than one-hundred-thousand pounds a year at fifty per cent, rather than forty per cent currently. But the Libdems also expect to save four-hundred and sixteen million a year, by the end of the next parliament, by reducing social security fraud - but does this treasure trove of cash really exist, or is it akin to the unending search for the holy grail? EMMERSON: You shouldn't start cutting taxes or increasing spending on the back of those savings until you have delivered them, and it's important to remember that the current government, and previous governments have tried to reduce spending on fraud, and perhaps found it much harder to deliver than what they anticipated. WATSON: In addition to the Liberal Democrats' hard and fast spending commitments, they also have a whole host of aspirations. These include a full housing and benefits package for asylum seekers. They'd also like to increase the amount of overseas aid to point seven per cent of GDP, over the next ten years, and they want to reduce the ten 'p' lower rate of tax to zero to help the poorest paid. WILLIAMS: In this country, the gap between the top twenty per cent, and the bottom twenty per cent, is steadily widening. That's not good for society. So yes, we've already said that when we have the money, and we've already made it clear that our first priority is education and pensions, we would go for an abolition of the rate of taxation at the bottom end. EMMERSON: Clearly to cut the ten pence rate to zero would actually cost money. It's going to cost them around four billion pounds if they want to do that. WATSON: The Liberal Democrats have high aspirations but the question is, are they radical enough to deliver them in a decent timescale? Certainly they are the only party sticking their neck out and calling for an increase in income tax rates, but critics say, if they were being totally honest with us, they'd tell us these are only a first step - sooner or later, they'd be back for more - especially if they want to see sustained improvements in public services. To the casual observer, the Liberal Democrats proposal to raise around seven billion pounds from tax rises may seem stunning, but experts say this isn't as breathtaking as it may appear. EMMERSON: We can see that the current government's looking to increase spending, by around seventy billion pounds between now, and two-thousand-and-three, four, the middle of the next parliament. So, an additional seven billion pounds on top of that, could make some difference to public services, but it's certainly not going to be a substantial one. WATSON: So Labour are telling people not to get too excited by the Libdems' promises; if they want too see them delivered, they'll have to pay a high price. SMITH: There's no doubt at all that taxes would go through the roof if the Liberals had their way, as indeed they are in many local councils, including my own, and with this list as long as your arm of promises they've made, the pressure would be there for taxes to go ever higher. WATSON: In Bristol, the Liberal Democrats fought shy of a rise in council tax. But if they are bolder nationally, and argue for tax increases, the Tories say they'll reap an electoral whirlwind. OTTAWAY: I think that if the public realise exactly what was involved in these expenditure plans, the levels of taxation which the Liberals would take them up to, I think there would be a backlash. We've seen it in the local government referendums, and I think we'll see it at a national level. WATSON: The larger parties say the Liberal Democrats aren't being open about the true cost of their plans. The message from Bristol to the Libdems appears to be that tax rises aren't popular. So, to sell voters the line that they'd have to pay even more in tax, could leave them marooned in an electoral backwater.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.