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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Matthew Taylor that last
point is an important one isn't it, you say that you support extra taxes
for extra spending on education but when you have a specific case, as in
Bristol, you bottle out and you say, oh no, we won't support it here.
MATTHEW TAYLOR: Well if you can find the money
in other ways as our group in Bristol pointed out you could, then why ask
the taxpayer for money you've already got. But more important than that,
there is an issue about...for the public not just how much they pay, but
how well it's spent and the fact is in Bristol they spend more than most
councils, they have a higher Council Tax than most councils and worst results
in the schools. That suggests that it isn't primarily the money, it's
how it's being spent and that's the criticism that the Liberal Democrats
made. But you look nationally, the Labour Government in this Parliament
have actually managed to spend a lower proportion of the national cake,
on health, on education, on pensions and that's why we see problems building
up in the Health Service, the longer waiting lists, that's why we see the
larger class sizes and that's why we saw just seventy-five p for pensioners
this year.
HUMPHRYS: The reality is that in
Bristol there is now as a result, in part of your decisions and your tactics
there, there is going to be less spending on education. And the reason
for that is perfectly straight-forward, you calculated didn't you, that
it would cost you votes if you came out in support of higher taxes. So
when it comes down to it you sort of abandon the moral high ground for
the rather grubbier lower ground of winning votes.
TAYLOR: No, what we're about is
spending money wisely and if Bristol...
HUMPHRYS: ... there'll be less
money spent on education now
than there would have been had you supported the extra tax.
TAYLOR: Well, we will see. That's
the case Labour failed to make and I think if they'd made it people would
have supported their schools but the fact is, the money was there in other
ways, there is no reason for those cuts to happen in schools in Bristol
because they have the money available to them and if Labour want to make
some kind of political gesture by punishing schools, they can, but that's
not a business the Liberal Democrats are in. The business that we're in,
right across the country, and we've shown it in councils, we've shown it
in Scotland, is making sure that investment takes place. Look at the difference
it made getting the Liberal Democrats in coalition in Scotland and you
can see the difference we could make at Westminster. We've delivered free
care for the elderly, we've delivered abolishing tuition fees in Scotland,
we've also been able to get more money into health and education in Scotland
and what we are saying to the electorate nationally, if you believe as
we do, that there needs to be well spent investment, sort out schools,
get rid of tuition fees, cut waiting lists in hospitals, make sure old
people don't have to sell their homes in old age to pay for their care,
we can deliver all of that, it will cost some money. We're not going to
pretend like the Conservatives you can get some money without having any
effect either on taxes or public spending - they say you can cut taxes
with no cut in spending - that's nonsense. We say, there is a need for
some very clear investment in these services, people know that because
they use the hospitals and schools, there is a cost to that, but it is
an affordable one.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, well, you say there
is a cost to it and that's the problem isn't it because what Bristol showed
is that when they are faced with the choice, I mean they may well tell
a pollster, oh yes, I want to spend extra money on the Health Service and
education and all that, when it actually comes down to putting that cross
somewhere where it means they will have to spend more money, they will
have to pay out in their taxes, they say, no thank you, don't want it.
TAYLOR: Well, this isn't the only
referendum that's been...
HUMPHRYS: No, no indeed but it's
a very significant one..
TAYLOR: ...we saw a referendum
in Milton Keynes where people did not vote for the lowest increase, they
did vote for an increase to support schools and other services. We saw
in the past similar work in Tower Hamlets where people actually voted for
increases and the issue seems to be whether people believe it will be well
spent, it will be delivered where it's needed and whether it's affordable.
So on the one hand you have Labour Bristol, taxing more than most councils
and delivering a worse service, where people rightly say, well the money
doesn't seem to be doing the job you want it spent better before we'll
give you more and on the other hand, you've got national government where
people have seen eighteen years of Conservative cuts, followed in the first
three years with Labour, with Labour actually spending less than the Conservatives
planned and of course they're jacking it up now for the General Election
but it's not actually bringing it back to where even the Conservatives
had it, as a proportion of national wealth, and that's the difference we
will make. We will spend some more, not much, but some more of that national
cake and it will deliver those improvements in services.
HUMPHRYS: Right, well let's come
to that, not much, the fact is, you're trying to make us believe that we
can have a good deal of extra spending for a very very small increase in
taxes. I mean if you look sorts of things you are talking about, we heard
a list in Iain Watson's film there, but massive increase in Overseas Aid
spending, very substantial increase there indeed, reducing the ten pence
rate of tax for poorest people down to zero. These are going to cost serious
money and you're proposing, what, the odd penny?
TAYLOR: What we've made absolutely
clear is that the tax proposals we make are the limit of the tax proposals
we will make and...
HUMPHRYS: ...not sure I follow
that - you mean you'll make no more promises...
TAYLOR: ...there are no other plans,
there are no other plans, the penny, the increased tax for people on their
earnings over a hundred thousand pounds a year will cover...
HUMPHRYS: ...yes but it won't cover
it all that's the point I'm making...
TAYLOR: ...will cover the things
that we guarantee...
HUMPHRYS: ...what, including cutting
the ten pence rate to zero for instance?
TAYLOR: No.
HUMPHRYS: No.
TAYLOR: And as you film made
clear, we've said of course there are other things. We're ambitious for
Britain and as the economy grows, we can spend more without raising taxes.
That's common ground between all parties.
HUMPHRYS: So in other words, let
me be quite clear about it. That was a sort of wish list really then.
That wasn't a set of proposals, so you are not promising to cut the ten
pence rate to zero, that is the case?
TAYLOR: No. We will do that when
we can.
HUMPHRYS: Right - if you can.
TAYLOR: If we can - and will be
a priority but we're not going to bankrupt the country to do it and we
are certainly not going to bankrupt people by demanding unreasonable taxes
but there are some things that do need to be done in health and education
and improving pensions that we don't think can wait. Labour made the mistake
of waiting and that's why people are disappointed because they haven't
been able to deliver, if we are going to make those increases, improvements
in services, we will have to ask people for little but it will be no more
than a penny on the basic rate and it will be no more than the ten per
cent increase on earnings over a hundred thousand pounds a year. So it's
affordable, it's not asking people for money that they can't afford. Nobody
likes paying taxes but everybody uses the schools and hospitals, everybody
either faces the need to have a good pension or knows a pensioner who does
and their family.
HUMPHRYS: Okay, well let's look
at the health spending then. You're going to save two-point-four billion
pounds, substantial amount of money, by cutting the drugs bill. Now you
heard what the Institute for Fiscal Studies said in that film, you can't
do it because it will damage the drugs industry to an unacceptable extent,
most of the extra spending that you propose, most of the extra spending
that you propose depends on you doing it. They say you can't do it without
damaging the drugs industry hugely.
TAYLOR: I will publish tomorrow
details of our health spending and what you will see in that is that we
make a very clear differentiation between the money we will pay for from
tax and that includes some of the money from the higher rate of tax on
high earners and with that we'll deliver us one-point-six billion of improvements
and that will deliver the staff, the improved pay for staff, the improved
beds, that will cut the waiting list and it will also deliver the abolition
of having to pay for your care in old age and being forced to sell your
home in the process. What it won't deliver is the cuts in prescription
charges and the...
HUMPHRYS: ...eyes, dentistry and
all that sort of thing...
TAYLOR: ...no, that will be delivered...
HUMPHRYS: ...all of that? - an
awful lot is going to be delivered for a very small amount of money isn't
it?
TAYLOR: ...all costed, all costed
through, all based on official government figures, no question about that
and we will set it all out in detail, but we are not going to claim it'll
deliver all of it. The second bit is to start, to stop the rip-off by
drug companies of the NHS. The NHS does not have the kind of purchasing
that for example New Zealand has pioneered and brought down the escalation
of pharmaceutical costs as a result. They've done it without damaging
pharmaceutical companies and we know and we know...
HUMPHRYS: ...slightly different
scale of things we are talking about here...
TAYLOR: ...absolutely...
HUMPHRYS: ...New Zealand doesn't
quite have the drugs industry that this country does.
TAYLOR: Absolutely, a much smaller
purchaser managing to buy things much more cheaply than the NHS does because
they've used their bargaining power. We believe the NHS can do even better
because of its size and muscle in the market. At the moment, pharmaceutical
companies describe this market as a premium market, where they can charge
premium prices to the NHS, we think that's wrong and we don't accept the
argument that the British taxpayer should pay for drugs research, whilst
everyone else around the world gets the benefit of cheaper drugs prices
and therefore better cancer care, more doctors and more nurses than we
do.
HUMPHRYS: Right, you are going
to cut four hundred million pounds by chopping Social Security fraud gosh!
- where have I heard that one before. You'll acknowledge that that has
been around for quite..I can't remember any spokesman sitting opposite
me who hasn't said we are going to do that. But, the point is this and
it's a very important point made by the IFS. If you've done it, fine, use
that money and spend it on something but don't spend the money before you
have saved it, that's not honest.
TAYLOR: I took a very strong stand
when I took on this role in the Party to say 'look, I will not guarantee
anything I cannot be certain of'. So the tax proposals we make, which
we believe are affordable will deliver the guarantees that we make. What
I will not do is promise that savings will deliver the improvements, so
the pensions are paid for by that increase in top rate tax for very wealthy
people, wholly delivered by and we can guarantee it to pensioners...
HUMPHRYS: Sorry, I thought you
told me that increase in top rate tax was also going to pay for bits of
the Health Service.
TAYLOR: It's more than enough to
do both is the answer. Two point nine billion will pay the pensions increase,
the rest will release money for the Health Service. So we can deliver both.
But the fact is we want to do more, we want to do work for asylum seekers
because we think that the way in which asylum seekers are supported at
the moment is simply wrong. Giving people vouchers doesn't work, it's
demeaning and ultimately....
HUMPHRYS: ..all this extra money
on the Overseas Aid budget.
TAYLOR: As I say - no that's not
in our guarantees...
HUMPHRYS: That's not a guarantee,
that's something else that's out is it, that's a wish list one?
TAYLOR: We are publishing our guarantees,
which are investment in education, investment in the Health Service, investment
in pensions, more police on the beat and we will make a start on that move
on Overseas Aid but we will not publish what we can't deliver. All of
that will be set up tomorrow, that's why we are launching the alternative
budget, but let's be absolutely clear - we know that over time any economy,
and all parties agree on this, there's difference between us. Over time
there is..more resources become available and you can do things. Most of
them are absorbed in giving people reasonable pay rises, but nevertheless
that money is there. What we are talking about is the guarantees we make.
We are not..nobody will get a leaflet and pretend that they will get things
that they don't get. Those leaflets they'll get, the manifesto will set
out detailed improvements in education, abolition of tuition fees, average
class sizes of just twenty-five in primary schools, the improvements in
the Health Service, extra doctors and nurses. The guaranteed improvements
in pensions, all of those will be paid for by the tax rises and there will
be no more - and unlike the other parties, because we set it out in that
way there will be no need to resort to stealth taxes, so we can guarantee
no stealth taxes in the way the others can't.
HUMPHRYS: Just a final very quick
thought, you'd acknowledge would you this is all just a start. I mean it's
only two per cent isn't it, if it all worked out for you there's only be
two per cent on top of the.. just a start?
TAYLOR: In any service, over time
they need more money to deliver the service adequately, if only to pay
decent salaries and to pay for the new equipment that this there. But what
we can guarantee to deliver is the abolition of tuition fees, lower class
sizes, more doctors and nurses to cut down waiting lists, big improvements
in pensions. Those are fully funded, they come in right at the start of
the Parliament and therefore unlike Labour, we will deliver, we won't disappoint
and there won't certainly be the big cuts you'd get from the Conservatives.
HUMPHRYS: Matthew Taylor, many
thanks.
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