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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, foot and
mouth. There are few parts of the country this morning that don't at least
one case and we still don't know whether or not we are facing a full scale
epidemic, it will be at least another fortnight apparently before we know
the worst - or the best. In the meantime, the government is trying to
get things moving again by allowing some animals to be moved to abattoirs
- is that wise? And in any case is it going to make any real difference
to the supplies of meat in the shops and, are there wider lessons to be
learned from this latest disaster to hit agriculture in this country.
Well Nick Brown is the Agriculture Minister, he's with me now, good afternoon
Mr Brown.
NICK BROWN MP: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: The latest, fifty-four
was we...
BROWN: It's fifty-six...
HUMPHRYS: It's gone up again...
BROWN: ..plus one in Northern Ireland,
there are two more on the Northumbrian Tyne and Wear border.
HUMPHRYS: So that's worrying.
BROWN: Well it is. I mean the intention
of putting these very hard movement restrictions in place as we did last
Friday was to hold everything at a standstill whilst we saw what was already
present in the National Herd and National Sheep flock and what we are finding
is that there are more cases than perhaps one might have anticipated and
of course not only do we not know how many there are but we don't know
where they are either.
HUMPHRYS: And that means killing
an awful lot of animals. Do we have a figure yet as to how many animals
have been killed or are going to be killed?
BROWN: The figure keeps going up
but it's something like fifteen thousand but rising. There are other animals
that are destined for slaughter.
HUMPHRYS: And how do we justify
that, given that, I mean everybody says terrible disease this. The reality
is as far as the animals are concerned, it's not a truly terrible disease,
some people say not much more than a heavy cold. As far as humans are concerned
there's no effect, so why are we reacting like this?
BROWN: Well the cost to the economy
of controlling the disease is less than the cost to the economy of wiping
out the livestock industry which is what the alternative structure
is.
HUMPHRYS: Would it be that?
BROWN: Yes it is because if you
either vaccinate which is one alternative strategy you lose your foot and
mouth disease free status permanently and the alternative is to just let
the disease run its course which also means it would be here permanently
and although it doesn't on itself kill most of the animals it can be fatal
but usually it isn't, it ruins the livestock industry. You couldn't have
a livestock industry in those circumstances.
HUMPHRYS: Well are we sure about
that?
BROWN: Yes we are. The correct
thing to do is to put in place movement controls, get everything to a standstill,
make sure that we've discovered all the cases that we were already and
by the use of quarantine, contain the disease and then slaughter the animals
so that we have eradicated it. Remember our country was foot and mouth
disease free for twenty years, what I want to do is get us back to that
disease free status and keep it.
HUMPHRYS: You can't guarantee keeping
it, that's the trouble.
BROWN: Well that's - I mean this
is an interesting question: where did it first come from? It wasn't present
lying dormant in the country for twenty years, it must have come in to
our country from outside. We need to have a very careful look at exactly
how that happened and whether our current controls are sufficient to prevent
it from happening again. And if they are not sufficient, they will have
to be tightened. My strategy is to get back to the disease free status,
no foot and mouth disease in this country. Naturally the same applies to
classical swine fever as well and if that means tougher controls, tougher
controls there will have to be.
HUMPHRYS: But as far as the present
outbreak of foot and mouth is concerned you are not sure that it has peaked
yet, you have no idea.
BROWN: There is no way of telling.
We are dealing with a biological phenomena, not a physical one or a mathematical
one and we will have to wait and see what emerges and as you rightly say
the next few days, just like the last few days, are absolutely crucial.
HUMPHRYS: Given that it hasn't
peaked, why are we allowing now the licensing of some animals to be moved.
Some of those that are obviously not in the infected areas.
BROWN: I'm not sure that it hasn't
peaked, we won't know until it has run its course. The correct strategy
is the one we are pursuing which is to hold everything at a standstill
whilst what is there emerges and then to try and get some trade moving
again but under very strictly controlled conditions and the Meat Hygiene
Service are working over the weekend with the abattoir owners and local
authority Trading Standards officers are working over the weekend to try
and get the licensing regime in place. But it has to be very strictly controlled.
HUMPHRYS: Are you saying there
is a possibility that that will not happen, that that licensing system
will not come into operation and we may end up moving no animals.
BROWN: No, I'm not saying that.
In fact we have already approved some eighty abattoirs under the scheme
over the weekend and there have been expressions of interest from two hundred
and thirty. So it seems that this is striking a cord with the trade.
HUMPHRYS: Well it would wouldn't
it, because they want the business and they want to try and recoup some
of their losses...
BROWN: But John that's not a bad
thing..
HUMPHRYS: No, I'm not suggesting
it is but it is a bad thing if you run the risk as presumably you must
be running the risk of spreading the disease because if you cannot be sure
whether an animal is carrying the disease, whether an animal is incubating
the disease, then there surely must be a risk, given that the virus is
wind-borne as - can be wind-borne as we all know. There must be a risk
of moving these animals around the country.
BROWN: John, I cannot afford to
run any risks with this and if the choice is between holding animals at
a standstill or getting trade moving again, if there is any chance of there
being any risk in that, then I am afraid the standstill has to remain.
HUMPHRYS: Why allow the licensing
to go ahead.
BROWN: On all of this I am acting
on professional advice and the veterinary advice is that provided the animals
are healthy animals and that is the first condition of the scheme it is
safe for them to travel one journey. What wouldn't be safe would be to
mix them with other animals that are going to live on. Remember the only
journey that these animals are doing and it's a short journey at that,
we can't licence long journeys because of the dangers of drivers having
to stop and then start again. For the short journeys I am advised that
under these strict conditions it is safe to move the animals directly from
their holding, either into a holding area for four weeks so that they can
be batched to go to the abattoir or directly to the abattoir. Once they
are dead, they don't pump out the virus because they breath it out.
HUMPHRYS: No, but once..if..when
they are alive you cannot be sure - as I understand it correct me if I
am wrong - you cannot be certain than an animal may be incubating the disease,
may be carrying the disease without it having become apparent.
BROWN: A condition of the scheme
is that the farmer inspector the animals and signs a certificate to say
that on that day they are not showing signs of the disease.
HUMPHRYS: But it may be there without
even it having become manifest.
BROWN: Yes. But they're going
on a very short journey to an abattoir where they're going to be killed,
and as long as they are not meeting other animals that are going to live
on and thereby spread the disease, the disease is contained.
HUMPHRYS: But we've already established
that the virus can be spread by the air. So therefore, is there not -
it may not be a great risk, I'm not suggesting to you that you are, you
know, risking contaminating the entire nation, but there must be some sort
of risk, and in the earlier part of this interview, you talked about clamping
down even further. This is a relaxation, isn't it.?
BROWN: No, the animals are not
being driven around other farm premises, they're confined to the lorries
and the major roads. They are not going down the rural by-ways, they are
making one short journey to the abattoir, and they are healthy animals,
they are not showing signs of the disease.
HUMPHRYS: But if there is any sort
of risk at all, and you are suggesting that there isn't one, people are
entitled to think, well perhaps what's happening here is that you want
to avoid paying compensation, as much compensation as possible, to people
who are indirectly affected by foot and mouth, farmers for instance, whose
animals have not been affected, but who can't move their livestock, and
here's the government saying, well, we're facing potentially an absolutely
massive bill here, so let's try to limit it, by allowing farmers to move
their stock, allowing abattoirs, allowing hauliers to continue to operate.
That's the suspicion that there some commercial imperative in this.
BROWN: No, there isn't a commercial
imperative in this. The government doesn't pay compensation for the consequentials,
we only pay compensation for the animals that have to be directly destroyed
in order to control the disease. All of this is being done to help the
livestock sector. We want to eliminate the disease in this country, so
I'm clearly not going to compromise that policy in any way. If we can
get the animals safely moving again, without risk of spreading the disease,
which I am advised that we can, surely it is right to do so.
HUMPHRYS: If that is the case,
but let's return to the question of...
BROWN: ...yes but the judgement
as to whether or not that is the case has got to be a veterinary judgement
rather than a political one. If the Chief Vet says to me, look, it isn't
safe to do this, or you're taking a risk, I can assure you that I wouldn't
take it.
HUMPHRYS: Can I be clear about
this compensation. You say we are not at the moment paying compensation
to people who are not directly affected, to farmers other than those whose
animals have actually been affected and slaughtered. Are you prepared
even to consider it at some stage?
BROWN: Look we've got the whole
situation under review. And in particular, I am very, keeping a very sharp
eye on the animal welfare consequences, and you will know that when the
classical swine fever outbreak occurred in East Anglia, we did move rapidly
to establish an animal welfare scheme, which enabled the state to take
the animals off farm, and pay some compensation to the farmers in order
to prevent unnecessary suffering to the animals, and I'm keeping a very,
very close eye on those animals that are affected by the movement restrictions,
however as you will also know, we are mostly talking about cattle and sheep
in this outbreak, not pigs, fortunately, it doesn't seem to have spread
in the national pig herd...
HUMPHRYS: ...yet, one has to say.
BROWN: Well, you know, tomorrow's
another day and so on, I can't say that with certainty, but at the moment
that is the position.
HUMPHRYS; But you're acknowledging
the possibility that if this thing continues and if farmers are hit badly
and possibly hauliers and possibly abattoirs, then there may be some compensation
for them.
BROWN: No, I want to be very careful.
I do not want to hold out the false prospect of hope for consequential
loss compensation...
HUMPHRYS: ...but you're not denying
it entirely...
BROWN: ...we are keeping the whole
issue under review. Of course any responsible government would do that.
But what I don't want to do is to somehow hold out the prospects and have
people hoping for something, that after all is an insurable risk, is going
to be compensated for by the government.
HUMPHRYS: See, what Tim Yeo says
is that you must announce compensation for unrecoverable losses, that's
the principle that must be adopted...
BROWN: ...but rather than listen
to what the Conservative Party spokesman...
HUMPHRYS: ...he speaks for many
people...
BROWN: ...yes, but he's in opposition.
In government, the Conservative Party paid no such compensation. The
only government that has every paid anything that looks like a consequential
loss compensation is me, as Minister, under the classical swine fever animal
welfare arrangements.
HUMPHRYS: What effect is this licensing
of some movement of some animals, what effect is this going to have on
shortage, because we're now seeing some of the shops, a lot of the shops,
supermarkets, running out of meat.
BROWN: No, I think that's being
exaggerated, the major retailers seem able to cope...
HUMPHRYS: ...see the stores, the
pictures in the papers this morning, of empty shelves, people saying I
can't buy any meat, I mean it's...
BROWN: ...I've asked people to
stick to their normal shopping patterns...
HUMPHRYS: ...well they haven't
listened to you...
BROWN: ...well they have...
HUMPHRYS: ...you don't necessarily
listen to Ministers...
BROWN: ...no, come on John, we're
a week into this, and actually people have been very good by and large...
HUMPHRYS: ...had...
BROWN: ...and it's, well, we're
a week into it now, and hopefully as we get the trade moving, admittedly
under tightly controlled conditions within the United Kingdom, it will
be possible to get safe British product back on to the store shelves.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but in the meantime,
there is going to be a problem, clearly, and the stores were saying yesterday,
forty to sixty per cent increase in sales, the busiest sales they've ever
had of meat, that doesn't suggest that people are saying, oh, Nick Brown's
told us we oughtn't go and rush out and buy meat...
BROWN: ...but they hung on for
a week, which is not bad, and a sixty per cent increase in sales in these
circumstances is not that bad either. Once people see the shelves stocking
up again, trade will return to normal and people will have a bit more meat
in their freezers than they otherwise would. Everyone should just keep
calm, and wait until the food, until the British livestock industry is
able to get product moving again, remember, we've issued licenses for abattoirs
over the week-end, the licensing arrangements have been put in place for
operation on Monday, I expect to see product moving again on Tuesday.
HUMPHRYS: But in the meantime there
are some problems, it means obviously we're going to be bringing in a bit
more meat from abroad, possibly from Europe, possibly from Germany. Germany
says it's inspecting a hundred per cent - we're inspecting a hundred per
cent of German carcasses - cow carcasses at the moment because some of
them clearly pose a risk. We know that now. Shouldn't we be taking a
much stricter stance with the Germans. Shouldn't we be saying to them:
Look, close the abattoirs that are responsible for delivering us meat that
has dodgy material.
BROWN: We are part of a single
market, the European Common Market, and that applies to livestock products
just like everything else. The enforcement of the controls is a matter
for national state competence, but with a European Union over-view, and
the Commission quite rightly have been very firm with the German Federal
authorities. They've said it is not acceptable to send beef carcasses
with the spinal column still attached. But that business of course is
nothing to do with foot and mouth disease.
HUMPHRYS: No,.no, this is BSE.
Exactly.....
BROWN: I know that you understand
it John. Not everyone does. You're right. This is a very, very important
BSE control. We take it very seriously in this country. That is why
Sir John Krebs who is now responsible for food safety matters, that's not
animal health, food safety - is ensuring that every consignment is inspected.
He is right to do so.
HUMPHRYS: But again, so long as
the risk is there should we not be taking - they take a tough stance with
us when it suits them, indeed they banned - quite rightly you would say,
they banned our beef - ... the BSE crisis it's still banned.
BROWN: We are very particular.....
HUMPHRYS: France is still not taking
it, but anyway...
BROWN: We had a particular row
with the French. The German Federal authorities couldn't have been fairer.
HUMPHRYS: But none the less...
BROWN: We're working hard to get
the ban on British beef lifted, and I can tell you there will be nobody
more outraged at the fact that the controls aren't being properly implemented
in Germany than the new German Federal Minister Renate Kuenast.
HUMPHRYS: Now Tony Blair talked
about supermarkets when he was addressing farmers on Friday night I think
it was. He said that they have, supermarkets have farmers, you people,
he said, collectively in an arm-lock. You've expressed concern yourself
about the strength that they exercise, the power that they exercise in
the market. Are you looking at curbs of some sort on the supermarkets.
Why raise these points?
BROWN: As you know we've discussed
this before. It is true that the big retailers are the most powerful player
by far in the supply chain. That's why I as Minister for Agriculture,
Fisheries and Food got all the players in the supply chain together and
set out to negotiate a voluntary code of conduct for the whole of the supply
chain, so that these allegations that the...
HUMPHRYS: Voluntary isn't it?
BROWN: Well, it's rather moved
on from that . At the same time the Competition Commission looked at supermarkets
trading practises rather more generally and approved most of them, but
there were two caveats, and the one that concerns us is the question of
the supply chain arrangements and they are looking at a statutory code
rather based on the work that we've done in the department to stop people
in powerful positions exercising unfair influence over the trading arrangements
for those that are necessarily part of the chain, but not in such a strong
position.
HUMPHRYS: And would that include
for instance saying to supermarkets, look, you must admit this is one of
the causes of this outbreak. Of course you mustn't send meat, order the
farmers effectively to send meat only to certain abattoirs which may be
many, many miles away - hundreds of miles away from where the meat is produced.
I mean can you - might you have - might you seize the power to do that?
BROWN: Well, the code of conduct
is actually a matter for the Competition Commission and the Secretary of
State for Trade and Industry, and him alone.
HUMPHRYS: But your advice obviously
would be listened to on this.
BROWN: We certainly talk to each
other, but it is a matter for him alone. It's not a shared responsibility.
HUMPHRYS: What's your view?
BROWN: Well, I don't think that
the current foot and mouth disease outbreak, and you know, we're going
to have a look at all of this. I don't want to assert a definitive point
of view, but from what I know so far I do not think it relates directly
to a number of abattoirs. After all we had an outbreak in sixty-seven
when there were substantially more abattoirs than there are....
HUMPHRYS: It was much more controlled
than it is now. It was in a very small part of the country.
BROWN: No, not the sixty-seven
one. I don't think...
HUMPHRYS: Compared with this one
it was.
BROWN: Well, but the disease has
followed the pattern of trade rather than the other way round, and it relates
to the original outbreak and to the use of markets, and those are not things
to do with supermarkets supply chain. There are issues to do with supermarkets
but I don't think they're tied up with the foot and mouth disease outbreak
and, at the same time, I don't really think that the number of abattoirs
is a key issue in this question of how did we get foot and mouth disease
and how did it spread. It cannot possibly be the fault of the abattoirs.
HUMPHRYS: Nick Brown, thank you
very much for joining us this morning.
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