BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 11.03.01

Film: Terry Dignan reports on Plaid Cymru's prospects at the General Election with the Welsh Nationalists putting more pressure on Labour, their policies are being scrutinised more carefully than ever before.



TERRY DIGNAN: In the resorts of North and West Wales there's a stillness in the air. But politics is never out of season for Plaid Cymru's new leader, Ieuan Wyn Jones. He's visiting party activists in seats Plaid hopes to win from Labour at the General Election. IEUAN WYN JONES MP: "You know, there's a sort of feel - you get a feel now that, you know, the whole election is going to be totally different after devolution". DIGNAN: But Labour accuses Plaid of disguising its true ambitions and a lack of tolerance in its ranks. PAUL MURPHY MP: That is the sort of problem that we face in Wales and it's this sort of soft underbelly of Welsh Nationalism which is so frightening to most of us in Wales. IEUAN WYN JONES MP: My message to the Labour Party is you have failed in your efforts to dissuade people from voting for Plaid Cymru because for them the real issue is that Labour has turned its back on the people of Wales. DIGNAN: In the heart of Snowdonia, Plaid demands help for tourism and farming, both hit by foot and mouth. Reaching out beyond its Welsh-speaking strongholds, Plaid also calls for action to save jobs in steel and manufacturing. But here in rural North Wales, Plaid's enemies say the party has been exposed for what it really is - intolerant, anti-English and some would say, racist. Plaid's new leader, Ieuan Wyn Jones, says the allegations, which he rejects, are a distraction from the real issues facing Wales - Labour's failure to deliver better services and more jobs. Yet Labour and the other main parties believe it's now going to be much more difficult for Plaid to deny, in the coming election, that its ultimate aim is a sovereign independent Wales separate from England. ACTUALITY: DIGNAN: Labour has every reason to fear Plaid. In elections two years ago to the devolved National Assembly which now governs Wales, Plaid won seats in the Labour-dominated English-speaking south of the country as well as the Welsh-speaking rural North and West. Meeting the voters and their children, Ieuan Wyn Jones is in Conwy, a seat taken by Plaid in the Assembly elections. Then, Labour accused Plaid of downplaying its commitment to Welsh independence. Now that the pieces are in place for an election strategy, it's become apparent Plaid will again avoid referring to independence. Instead, it says its long term aim is self-government within the European Union. What does that mean, asks Labour? Wait and see, replies Plaid. JONES: If Europe goes down the way of being a Europe of the regions, Wales' place in that will be in a particular direction. But of course if Europe doesn't develop in that way and Wales might at some stage want to make an application to be a Member State within the European Union. So what I've said to the party is that in order to get clarity on that it's important for us to discuss this issue and to come to a conclusion on it so that everybody understands exactly where we stand. MURPHY: Really the only question we have to ask is, 'Do you, Welsh Nationalist Party, want to be separate from England? Do you want to be part of Great Britain, part of the United Kingdom? That's a very difficult question that they have to answer, but it's one that we intend to pose time and time again - stay away from all this fudge and nonsense, one simple question: do you want to remain part of the United Kingdom?' And I think that'll be the key question during the election. DIGNAN: Wales shares with Scotland a landscape which in normal times attracts visitors by the coachload. But Scotland has the edge in self-government. So Plaid wants Wales to have at least the same law making powers as the Scottish Parliament. Even if English-speaking Wales agrees, Plaid's rural heartlands may want to go further and strive for independence. JONES: Our view is that full national status is a long-term ambition and that would be something that could be put to the people of Wales some years down the line. MURPHY: People in the south in the Welsh Nationalist Party would have difficulty in selling that. On the other hand in the traditional rural north, west heartlands of the Welsh Nationalist Party they have to keep to that line because that's what people vote for. Now that's very difficult for them and they're going to have to answer that question. DIGNAN: Edward the First built Conwy Castle - to consolidate English power here. Two hundred and fifty years later Wales finally lost its independence. Plaid's traditional supporters want it back - to tackle their country's economic problems and to protect their language. They fear that in rural areas incomers from England threaten the survival of the Welsh tongue. Ieuan Wyn Jones has been presented with the first really big test of his leadership by comments about English-speaking people made by one of his Plaid councillors. Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative politicians have united in outright condemnation of the failure, as they see it, of Ieuan Wyn Jones to disown his controversial councillor. From Plaid's point of view, with an election in the offing, this could hardly have happened at a worse time. ACTUALITY DIGNAN: While Plaid's roots are in Welsh-speaking rural areas, in this school drama rehearsals are in the language of the majority in Wales. Plaid's goal is to represent that majority. Yet some party members have a more pressing concern, saving their language against an influx of English speakers into small villages. These fears were put by a leading Plaid councillor, Simon Glyn, when he appeared as a guest on a BBC Radio Wales discussion programme. BBC RADIO WALES: SIMON GLYN: Once you have more than fifty per cent of anybody living in a community who speaks a foreign language then you lose your indigenous tongue almost immediately and this is what is happening in our rural villages. We are faced with a situation now where we are getting tidal waves of migration, inward migration, into our rural areas from England. QUESTION TIME: DAVID DIMBLEBY: Tonight, on Question Time the President of Plaid Cymru, Ieuan Wyn Jones. DIGNAN: On BBC ONE's Question Time Plaid's leader said Councillor Glyn had highlighted a problem of young people being unable to find work and buy homes in their own villages. But he was asked to condemn the comments about language as totally unacceptable. IEUAN WYN JONES "QUESTION TIME": He did not say that English was a foreign language. DIMBLEBY: He described English as a foreign language. JONES: No, no he didn't. DIMBLEBY: This is the BBC's transcript of it. GLENYS KINNOCK MEP: That's the BBC's transcript. DIMBLEBY: Hang on a second. JONES: No, let me just finish the point. DIMBLEBY: Alright but just, just read it there. He described English as a foreign language and.....(applause). MURPHY: It's something which is so offensive, so deeply offensive to those of us who are English-speaking and offensive to our friends from England as well. DIGNAN: Conwy is marginal. Having lost it to Labour at the last General Election, the Conservatives have a new candidate. But Plaid, which won here in the Assembly elections, stands in his way. So, he's every reason to exploit Councillor Glyn's remarks for all they're worth. DAVID LOGAN: The truth about Plaid has been exposed recently with the comments of Councillor Simon Glyn. Using racist language to highlight what is a very serious social problem in the rural communities of Wales. His party leadership have been quite definite in their refusal to sack him when they've apologised on his behalf, then he has withdrawn those apologies. I think we've had exposed the real agenda of Plaid and it is quite frankly a very unpleasant one. DIGNAN: Not to be outdone, the Liberal Democrats have taken their place in the assault on Plaid. They, too, have their eyes on marginal seats like Conwy. They say Ieuan Wyn Jones should have taken the earliest opportunity to rebuke Councillor Glyn publicly. VICKY MACDONALD: I think there is a problem with what Simon Glyn said about the English living in Wales that Ieuan Wyn Jones has not addressed and has not distanced himself from. He really should have taken that issue in hand and dealt with it. It's a... Simon Glyn really had no right to say these things. They are very unfortunate remarks and have done Plaid I think a lot of damage. DIGNAN: Plaid must limit further damage or risk losing in areas, especially South Wales, where Welsh speakers are in a minority. That would leave the party's electoral strategy in ruins. So, the leadership is conceding that some of Councillor Glyn's comments were unacceptable. Above all, it wants to avoid any impression that it only represents those who speak Welsh. JONES: The real issue is that there are Welsh speaking communities in the rural areas that are...that are under great difficulties and under great pressure and there are urban areas in Wales where similar communities, English speaking, are also under similar threat. So what we've got to do and I make it perfectly clear, Plaid Cymru is a party for the whole of Wales and we want to try to address the issues as they affect people wherever they live in Wales, whatever language they speak, whatever the background. DIGNAN: Two years ago Plaid brought in a rich harvest of votes at the elections to the Welsh Assembly. Labour predicts there'll be no repeat performance at the General Election. Because whatever hopes it has of accumulating seats in the English-speaking south, Plaid remains, says Labour, a party dominated by its Welsh-speaking heartlands. MURPHY: I know that all parties are broad church parties, but there is a fundamental difference with a party which pretends in the South to be socialist, left-wing, English-speaking and all the rest of it, but in the North is very, very different indeed as obviously illustrated by Councillor Glyn's comments. DIGNAN: By the time he sets off on the campaign trail, Ieuan Wyn Jones will hope he has moved the debate on from his handling of those comments. He wants to fight the election on Labour's record in power. That way, he believes, Plaid has every chance of winning over Labour voters in south Wales and in seats like Conwy. JONES: They are determined now to register their protest against Labour because they say you know for New Labour read New Tories in Wales. It's just a continuation of Tory policies and they see Plaid Cymru as the only real alternative and they are not going to be dissuaded about voting for Plaid Cymru simply by these diversionary tactics from the Labour Party. DIGNAN: The tranquillity of the resorts of North and West Wales may be disturbed earlier than usual this year. There's an election in the air, one which could see Plaid Cymru break out of its rural heartlands. Its opponents hope that by its own actions Plaid may have made that goal harder to achieve.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.