BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 25.03.01

Film: FILM ON POLITICS AND RELIGION. This week Tony Blair makes a speech to the Christian Socialist Movement. Iain Watson looks at whether politicians should avoid talking about religion.



TONY BLAIR: I'm worth no more than anyone else. I am my brother's keeper, I will not walk by on the other side. IAIN WATSON: To remind people that Tony Blair is a Christian is hardly a revelation, but for a man who once said he doesn't wear his religion on his sleeve, this week it looks like he'll be positively besuited in his beliefs. Election victories tend to owe more to mammon than God - but this time round Labour aren't placing all their faith on the strength of the economy. On Thursday, when Tony Blair makes his first ever speech to the Christian Socialist Movement as Prime Minister, we'll going to hear a lot about values in politics and there's going to be praise for faith based organisations; those religious charities and voluntary groups who do so much to help the least well off. But there are those in Labour's broad church who feel more than a little uncomfortable about such a high profile link between politics and religion. LORD ROY HATTERSLEY: This is a basically an agnostic nation. We're sentimental about religion but people don't take it as seriously as they did even when I was a boy. And the Prime Minister to evangelise on behalf of one point of view because that's what it is, might just alienate people of a different sort. I think that is a very real danger. MARTIN O'NEIL MP: I think that people make their political judgements in elections for a variety of reasons and I'm not sure in the UK if religion or faith-based approaches will be necessarily that successful. STEPHEN TIMMS MP: They're wrong. It's absolutely clear, if you look in the Bible how close politics and faith are and increasingly I think we're seeing in modern Britain those are very close as well. WATSON: Tony Blair wont just be addressing Christians but a multi faith audience this week. His supporters say he'll look benignly on the opportunities for new partnerships with religious groups if he's granted a second term TIMMS: Quite a number of the themes in our first term have in fact been taken up from the churches before the election, the common good, the work that came from the Roman Catholic bishops, the church's report on unemployment and the future of work, both of those were very influential on this first term of government and I'm sure he'll want to set out the moral vision that will guide a Labour government in a second term. WATSON: The Christian Socialist movement has prepared a report called Faith in Politics to be published this week; it will set out the views of people from all religious faiths on the government's progress. There'll be praise for efforts to eliminate the debts of poorer nations but the Liberal Democrats say they want to see a more substantial commitment to ending poverty. SIMON HUGHES MP: I would think that the church as a whole and many church members as well as many members in other faiths would be very critical of a government that hasn't narrowed significantly the gap between the rich and the poor, hasn't made sure that we have a society where wealth is more fairly distributed, hasn't honoured our international commitment to give a decent amount of our income to the third and fourth world. WATSON: The real worry in Labour's ranks isn't so much that the Prime Minister's is indulging in a bit of religious rhetoric, some senior politicians are far more concerned about what they see is a growing influence of religious values and religious groups, over policy making, especially when it comes to welfare services. But government ministers see faith based organisations as ideal allies in their crusade against social evils. The Salvation Army are perhaps one of the best known of what are now termed faith based organisations and raise most of their funding themselves. They're the second largest provider of social services in the UK, after local government. But they also offer pastoral comfort to the sick. The Faith in Politics report will highlight difficulties some faith based groups face in getting access to public money - but the Treasury are indicating that these problems could be eased in future, in a renewed spirit of partnership. TIMMS: I think the models for faith based participation have been well established in recent years. I think what I hope we can see in the future is those models being taken up on a bigger scale, more churches, mosques, temples, taking part in welfare to work projects, in addressing youth homelessness and addressing exclusions from schools. So I think we've seen the examples well established in recent years but in the future I'd hope we'd see a bigger scale. WATSON: The government are looking to the United States for inspiration, here in Washington DC a federation of faith based groups committed to tacking poverty met last week under the banner of Call to Renewal. Their convenor is coming to Britain to address the same meeting as Tony Blair. He doesn't foist religion on those he helps, but says faith organisations can teach people an important set of values JIM WALLIS: Our little neighbourhood centre, the Sojourners Neighbourhood Centre, has a freedom school. On the wall we have pictures of Martin Luther King Junior and Malcolm X and other we call freedom fighters and the kids learn that they can be freedom fighters too but only if they take responsibility for their own lives. WATSON: Jim Wallis sees a role for government in tackling deprivation but stresses that state intervention isn't enough. WALLIS: There are behaviours that do entrench and perpetuate poverty but then there are structures that make it impossible to move out of poverty even if you take personal responsibility, unless you make policy changes in the way the society and the system functions. The bible says that social change has to be both personal responsibility and social responsibility. The bible holds rulers accountable and kings and judges and employers and also talks about people and how they have to change their lives. TIMMS: Jim Wallis stands out as the one well known US Christian who is firmly on the left and so in terms of people like me who is in the Christian Socialist Movement he's a very important figure. I think we've got a lot to learn from him. I think equally he will be very interested to see the progress that's been made in the UK, in faith-based involvement in dealing with poverty and unemployment and youth exclusion. I think we've got a lot to learn from each other. WATSON: It's lunchtime at the Salvation Army's day centre in Hackney, East London. Local people, mostly pensioners, regularly drop in for a cheap meal and a chat. The religious views of the volunteers aren't forced down the throats of the centre's visitors, something the Christian Socialist Movement would approve of. But even the admiring biographer of the Salvation Army's founders has a warning. He's concerned Labour may be tempted to rely too much on the contribution of religious groups to welfare provision. LORD HATTERSLEY: The danger becomes the argument, the only people who are really competent to provide welfare to look after health, to assist old people, to deal with young people in distress, are faith-based organisations. Some states in the United States of America regard them as the only appropriate providers of welfare and I think that's a hideously inappropriate thing and it's very important not to start along that road because who knows where it will end. WATSON: Deep beneath St Botolph's church, on the edge of the City of London, much needed warmth and a good meal is provided for homeless people. The Tories say what motivates the volunteers here and in many similar projects, is their faith and the government needs to recognise and respect this when it comes to employment law. DAVID LIDDINGTON MP: I think that if you are a faith-based organisation you should have the right to employ people who are of your faith or at least sympathetic to your faith and I think also that it's quite wrong for central or local government to attach strings to say that, yes it's all right to do youth work but you mustn't have a banner saying that you're doing it for the glory of God as well as to, for the good of your local community. WATSON: But the Tories may be surprised to find out just what Labour are contemplating if they get a second term. Senior voices are saying that religious groups involved in welfare work should indeed be given the right to ensure that the staff they employ adhere to the faith. TIMMS: Sometimes concerns are expressed that there has been discrimination against faith-based organisations on the part of some local authorities or some institutions. I think the government is making it increasingly clear in its guidance that we want to see approaches that work. I think in employment terms government needs to respect the basis of those organisations and I don't think there's going to be a problem here. I mean sometimes it's suspected that there might be. O'NEILL: Ministers will have to realise that there are a lot of dedicated professionals, people of considerable ability, who might find it offensive to be asked what their religion was first and then considered for employment because I could well imagine that it wouldn't just be the religion, there would be other things that would come into it as well and I think that it would be a very dangerous precedent to set. WATSON: The government aren't simply wedded to the idea of supporting faith-based organisations in their welfare work, they are also looking to them to help shape the attitudes of the next generation. If re-elected, the government envisage an expansion of faith-based schools in the state sector. Now although some Labour dissenters say they haven't fully thought through the consequences, government ministers are convinced this is a popular policy. TIMMS: Well I think the conclusion that David Blunkett has reached in looking at this is that schools with a faith basis work. That they're popular with parents, that they're effective in achieving high standards, that they're doing a very good job and we want to see more of that kind of institution across the country. O'NEILL: For those people who do not wish there to be an undue amount of religion in their children's education, I think they have a right to say, well we don't see why the local school should become a faith-based institution when we've always seen it as being the local comprehensive to which the whole community could go. And I think that we could be in danger of reinforcing social divisions in the name of alternative forms of provision. WATSON: Some say that the Prime Minister is giving sustenance to faith-based groups of one kind or another because he's more interested in alleviating the symptoms and not the root causes of poverty. As an adherent of the Christian Socialist Movement, he should really only be eligible for membership on one count. LORD HATTERSLEY: The Prime Minister is certainly qualified as a member of the Christian Socialists as a Christian. He's not qualified as a socialist, nor would he claim to be. The Prime Minister wants a better society, a more compassionate society, more efficient society, a more honest society. But he doesn't want to change the nature of society and I think that's absolutely essential to Christian socialism. WATSON: Tony Blair's on a mission - to ignite enthusiasm amongst the faithful in his bid for a second term. To do so, he'll be delivering a moral message this week but by bringing politics and religion together, he won't necessarily be thanked by the doubters and non-believers who still exist within Labour's ranks.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.