BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 01.04.01

Film: Terry Dignan reports from Scotland on the different pressures faced by Labour from those in the rest of the United Kingdom.



TERRY DIGNAN: For weeks the parties in Scotland have been on election footing, rehearsing their battle plans in readiness for an all-out offensive to take enemy-held constituencies. But in truth, they've been preparing for the unknown, unsure as to what awaits them. When battle commences here in Scotland the election will be fought in circumstances never before experienced by the main political parties. This may result in a wholly new approach to campaigning, quite different from what we'll see in England. And all because - from a Scottish perspective - political power is no longer a monopoly of Westminster. This will be the first general election since Tony Blair fulfilled his pledge to re-establish a Scottish Parliament. After elections to the parliament Labour formed a coalition government with the Liberal Democrats to run Scotland. Led by the late Donald Dewar, the Scottish Executive took office when the Queen opened the parliament. The coming general election is for a UK government. But in Scotland the Executive's performance in the parliament will still be an issue. PROFESSOR JAMES MITCHELL: The SNP and the Tories will try and make use of the Scottish Parliament to embarrass the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats as they've been doing during the Parliament since it was established. DIGNAN: The SNP, the Scottish National Party, wants independence. It regards the general election as an opportunity to cast a verdict on Labour's record in the new Parliament. ALEX SALMOND MP: Rather than that not being a factor in the Westminster election, I think it'll spill over into the Westminster election and what's going on in the Scots parliament will be an issue in this Westminster election. DIGNAN: The Tories, too, hope to exploit Labour's record in the Parliament. They won't be drawing any distinctions between the Labour-led Executive in Scotland and the Labour Government at Westminster. SIR MALCOLM RIFKIND: We happen to be living in a time when Labour controls all levels of government - they control the local council here, they control the Scottish Parliament, they control the United Kingdom Government. The public have a right to use an election to either praise the Labour Party, if they're pleased with what has been delivered, or to punish them if they think that there's failed opportunities and missed opportunities over the last couple of years. DIGNAN: But ministers in the UK Government don't run the Scottish Parliament. And they believe it's their record which should be judged at the general election, not that of the Scottish Executive. HELEN LIDDELL MP: Really at the heart of everything in Scotland is the economy. We've managed to create over a hundred thousand new jobs, the lowest levels of unemployment for a generation. That is inextricably linked with the wellbeing of my constituents, and they recognise that requires a Labour government at Westminster with the kind of economic policies we've been pursuing to bring stability rather than boom and bust. DIGNAN: Conservatives like Sir Malcolm Rifkind are stepping up face to face meetings with voters in marginal constituencies. They hope to regain seats they lost at the last election by taking votes from Labour and their Liberal Democrat partners in the Scottish Executive. UNNAMED MAN: As you know, as you find out probably yourself, when you do take the trains you're stuck. DIGNAN: The Conservatives - and SNP - believe the Liberal Democrats are in retreat. RIFKIND: In the past people voted Liberal Democrat because they didn't want Labour or Conservative. Now they find in Scotland that the Liberal Party has become a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Labour Party; they're a junior member of a coalition. MITCHELL: As we've seen in the past when Labour and the Liberal Democrats have worked closely together, as in nineteen-ninety-two, the Liberal Democrats can suffer in areas such as the north east of Scotland. And this is going to be a real worry for the Liberal Democrats. SALMOND: I think the Liberal party's going to pay a heavy price for being seen as Labour's client party as they now are in Scotland, and they're going to find it much more difficult to present themselves an Opposition party in terms of the Westminster elections. DIGNAN: But the Liberal Democrats say they're independent despite joining Labour in the Scottish Executive. They argue that since devolution the electorate has got used to parties co-operating. MALCOLM BRUCE MP: It's the kind of politics, frankly, that a modern democracy must get used to and it doesn't have any bearing on the fact that in a campaign, whether it's for a Scottish parliament election or for the Westminster election, Labour and the Liberal Democrats are separate, independent parties, campaigning for our own support, on our own policies and inviting people to give us the strength to implement them. DIGNAN: In the next door constituency the SNP's Alex Salmond is describing to parishioners his local connections. SALMOND: I think Banff and Buchan as an area is a good place - and a cheap place - to have holidays, you know. DIGNAN: Voters will punish the parties in the Executive, he says, for mishandling issues such as aid to the fishing industry. When the Parliament voted - thanks to a Liberal Democrat back-bench rebellion - for extra financial help for the fishermen, it's claimed ministers took no notice. SALMOND: Scots' government ignored a democratic vote at the Scots' parliament in fishing and Labour and the Liberal parties turned over a democratic vote, will be a huge issue in this general election campaign. LIDDELL: We are in a position now where the parliament is beginning to bed down. Yes there will be rows, yes there will be arguments that's the nature of politics. But people recognise we delivered one of our key pledges which was the establishment of a Scottish parliament. And with partnership between that Scottish parliament and the Government at Westminster, we are able to deliver a better Scotland, and I think that's what people will focus on in the election whenever it comes. DIGNAN: Labour MPs like Jim Murphy swept aside all opposition in constituencies such as Eastwood at the last election. But that was before devolution. Now Labour's leadership at Westminster is anxious that the actions of the Scottish Executive may undermine their MPs' chances of re-election. MITCHELL: There have been a number of issues in which the Executive has had problems, partly because of the divisions between the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, most recently on the issue of fishing. And that clearly has embarrassed the Labour Party, not just in Scotland, but across the UK. That's the kind of issue which if it arises, in the run up to the election and during the election, would be seriously damaging to the Labour Party. And it's quite clear that all efforts inside the Labour Party are to ensure that this kind of thing doesn't happen. DIGNAN: When the election is called all the main parties in the United Kingdom will argue over how best to provide better public services like Health and Education. But in Scotland the election may also expose quite serious differences over spending on these services between the Labour-led Scottish administration here in Edinburgh and the Labour Government in London. When they're out meeting voters Labour MPs may have to explain why, for example, they support university tuition fees while Labour members of the Scottish Parliament have scrapped them. "That's devolution," they'll reply. And they'll say that returning Labour to Westminster will safeguard the economic policies which allow Scotland to choose to spend more. LIDDELL: The Scottish Executive has to take its decisions, as any elected authority has to, based on the budget that it has. And if it chooses to spend that budget in a different way that's what democracy's about and that's what devolution is about. But it shows how important it is to have a devolved settlement not divorced from the rest of the United Kingdom because the strength of the United Kingdom economy is allowing the Scottish Executive to pursue some very radical policies. DIGNAN: The Executive has also accepted free personal care for the elderly in principle. Malcolm Bruce's Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Scottish Parliament can force Labour to be more radical than the Westminster government because the Nationalists and Conservatives will vote with them on issues like long-term care and tuition fees. Yet the Conservatives will be fighting the General Election to cut spending and reduce taxes. PROFESSOR JAMES MITCHELL: The Tories in the Scottish Parliament have been behaving like a classic Opposition party, arguing for increased public expenditure in a whole range of matters. Now that clearly doesn't sit very well with William Hague and his party south of the border, who are trying to present themselves as a sort of an economically responsible alternative party of government. RIFKIND: It was true even before you had devolution when the Secretary of State for Scotland - and I occupied that post - sometimes did things differently to what was being done south of the border. That's perhaps more likely now that you have a Scottish Parliament, but it's got to be done on the basis of the merits of the issue and not for some fundamental ideological or constitutional reason. DIGNAN: Indeed, some believe the Parliament in Edinburgh may have trouble paying for its pledges. Relying on a grant from Westminster, the Parliament currently receives more per head of population than England for services like health and education. That causes resentment among MPs representing English seats. But under the so-called Barnett Formula the gap is closing - which is something the SNP will exploit during the election campaign. PROFESSOR MITCHELL: One issue the SNP's been trying to get across is the fact that Scotland's share of public expenditure is being squeezed. It's still going up of course but relative to England the SNP and indeed academic commentators have pointed out is being squeezed. It's something which is quite technical but the SNP are going to have to try and find some way of popularising this message and getting that across. But of course again it's an issue on which all of the other parties will try and steer well clear of. SALMOND: The big battle for the next Westminster parliament as far as Scotland's concerned, is going to be Westminster attempts to starve the Scots parliament of funds. And therefore I think it's absolutely vital there are people standing up for Scotland in the Westminster environment and also standing up for the Scots parliament. DIGNAN: The SNP says an independent Scotland governed from Edinburgh wouldn't be at the mercy of decisions made by a United Kingdom government at Westminster. The other parties may have to tackle this issue head on, wearily perhaps because they may have thought that the creation of a devolved Scottish Parliament had ended the debate about Scotland's constitutional status. BRUCE: I think the SNP's problem is they continue to claim that Scotland is richer than the rest of the United Kingdom without, I have to say, producing any evidence that's credible, whereas in reality I think most people in Scotland recognise that there is great strength in being part of the United Kingdom and sharing the costs, for example, of defence and foreign affairs and trade relations with our partners within the Union rather than trying to have to fund the arrangement for ourselves. LIDDELL: They want a separate Scotland they want to divorce Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. That's all they've got to say in this General Election. DIGNAN: It's argued that the creation of this Parliament has undoubtedly strengthened the SNP and that's something which should worry Labour because it if really is the case that the Nationalists are now a much more formidable fighting force, they could use the General Election as a springboard to take control of this Parliament at the next Scottish elections in two years' time." SALMOND: Well the impact of the Scottish dimension to politics has been to pull up SNP support particularly for the Scots parliament, but also for the Westminster elections and we're very happy with that. MITCHELL: This time round of course the SNP has a substantial contingent of politicians in the Scottish Parliament and they're going to be working full time in the SNP's target seats. So in that respect the SNP's resources are far in excess of anything they've had in the past. If the SNP does reasonably well in these elections and their vote rises as compared with 1997 I think it's a fair assumption that that suggests that they are likely to do pretty well in two years' time at the Scottish general election. DIGNAN: So when the UK election gets underway, the arguments heard in this parliament will inevitably flow into the campaign. UK issues won't be absent. The Conservatives will oppose joining the Euro, Labour will emphasise its management of the British economy. Indeed, the campaign Labour most wants to fight here is about who runs Britain. LIDDELL: Well at the end of this General Election one of two men is going to walk into Ten Downing Street. It will be either William Hague or Tony Blair and any vote for someone other than a Labour candidate is a vote to help William Hague into Downing Street. That's a very, very clear cut message." DIGNAN: No matter how hard the parties drill for the coming election, in Scotland it may not be enough. They could be entering unfamiliar territory where the influence of a devolved parliament is likely to scupper the old certainties about how politicians campaign to take power.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.