BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 29.04.01

Film: Film on the Labour Manifesto. Iain Watson reports that Labour's manifesto is unlikely to be as radical as many of the Party's supporters hope.



IAIN WATSON: With the General Election looming, Labour apparatchiks are busy redrafting the manifesto, to give it a bit more impact. But in the end, will they offer the prospect of consolidation or change? If Labour ARE granted a second term, will Britain look a very different place in the future? Well perhaps with a little bit of help we can try to find out. But there are those within Labour's ranks who say the government isn't embarking on an exciting enough journey. MATTHEW TAYLOR: The reality is that even if Labour was to spend all the money that it's committed to and the economy was to stay in good shape, in four or five years we would still be in Britain the most unequal of the major European economies and we would still have the lowest level of public investment. So I think that I'd like to see Labour's manifesto sensible, prudent, incremental but signalling a sort of Utopia, where do we really want to get to in fifteen or twenty years, what does a good Britain feel like? LORD SAWYER: I don't know that you make lots of promises, you give people confidence that the second term will be a term of good and sound economic management and that you'll do what is necessary to maintain high levels of employment, low inflation and all the things that people expect from government. WATSON: Labour 's policy wonks at Number 10 have been searching far and wide to try to find something as rare as a sighting of Halley's Comet - the elusive big idea. But in the end they've decided to settle on a theme which links together a constellation of bright, but small ideas; this unifying vision will apparently be of a meritocratic society - expressed in the rather more populist phrase, 'opportunity for all'. But there are some influential thinkers within the Labour Party who say this just isn't nearly enough if Tony Blair is to deliver on his promise of a second term more radical than the first. MICHAEL JACOBS: When people have the opportunity to earn wealth they then accumulate it for themselves and they pass it on to their children and you've no longer got a meritocracy. So meritocracy constantly requires the redistribution of wealth, the redistribution of opportunity and sometimes it sounds like what you want to do is create opportunity for this generation but then the next generation will not be meritocratic. PHIL COLLINS: The drawbacks of the idea of meritocracy is that it tends to leave people behind and policy has to address those people at the bottom. It will be even worse for people who are in disadvantaged positions to be told that they're there on merit. VOICE OVER. Labour will now have a majority of 64O. WATSON: If we go back to 1945, it's obvious radical ideas can win elections. But don't count on a repeat performance. Some Labour insiders are stressing that the 2001 contest will not be 'a transformative election'; instead we should expect evolutionary, not revolutionary change - in line with Labour's mantra 'a lot done, a lot still to do'. But just in case that isn't very inspiring, Labour will set out longer term aims looking far into the future. Many of Labour's ambitions have a rather generous time scale for fulfillment. Only if we travel forward to 2010, do we enter a Utopian world where British productivity has risen faster than our competitors; where the number of children in poverty has been cut by half; where there are millions more in higher education; where fuel poverty has been banished; and there are homes 'fit for all'. But just before you get too enthusiastic, I should point out that Labour are saying reducing world poverty by fifty per cent will take five years longer. JACOBS: I think ambitions for the year 2010 are probably a bit too far distant for most ordinary voters, but there's a very easy way to marry those to what voters can recognise now, which is to say well what will we have achieved by the end of this Parliament, on our way to a target at 2010. WATSON: As well longer term ambitions and challenges Labour's manifesto will also include a series of pledges in each policy area - to be fulfilled during the lifetime of the next Parliament. But these new, improved pledges will apparently be very different in nature to those they put on offer back in 1997. TAYLOR: If you look back at the '97 pledges there pretty micro and arguably they're not terribly good policy I think the waiting list policy for example was a bit of an albatross round the neck of Frank Dobson when he was running health after '97. So I hope that if there are pledges this time that there broader and that there more about ultimate objectives and less about particular devices LORD SAWYER: I don't think they are necessary in the second term, I think pledges can lock you in to decisions that you don't need to make at the time. Look the world is changing rapidly, you go to any business - not very many businessmen these days give pledges for three or four or five years. WATSON: On the basis of information from recent drafts, it now appears as though Labour's manifesto will be split into five main sections - broadly speaking these would encompass the economy; welfare and work; investment in public services; anti-crime measures to build stronger communities; and Britain's international role. But Labour are perhaps being just a little coy about how to pay for their policies - because, as well as offering targeted tax cuts when affordable, 'On the Record' has been told that they're going to repeat their pledge not to increase the basic or higher rate of income tax; much to the disappointment of some of their, usually loyal, supporters. LORD SAWYER: I don't think that any pledges need to be made on taxation either way, I think people need to, the government has now got sufficient support and sufficient confidence amongst the voters to be able to say, you know we're going into the election, it isn't our job to put the taxes up, we think people already pay enough taxes but if there are circumstances that are unforeseen then we might have to make changes in the taxation system. TAYLOR: I would hope that Labour doesn't tie its hands too much in relation to taxation. Partly because I think actually, you want to have flexibility because you know, who knows where the economy's going to go in the next few years, but also because if there is a growing public appetite for Labour to go further in terms of investment and justice, and if that begins to look as though people are saying look actually we recognise that there's going to be consequences for tax, well then I think one needs to respond to that public mood. WATSON: A critical section of the manifesto will concern continued investment in public services; by the end of a second term, for example, Labour wants to see our health service catch up with some of the best in Europe; but some Labour-supporting thinkers say if they won't grasp the nettle of tax, to make public services better - then a radical option would be an up-front commitment to make greater use of the private sector in the NHS. COLLINS: There is scope for greater private involvement in the provision of health care There's still an ideological Rubicon to be crossed here. It's been crossed in education but I still don't think it has been in health care and if there's a real hostage to fortune in the next term of Labour government it will be this: What will happen if the promised money doesn't yield the benefits which we hope for it? WATSON: If Labour wins the next election, newborn babies will be given a hand up and a handout by government, which they can draw down in adulthood. These 'baby bonds' - announced last week - are the first in a series of family friendly pledges. But Labour's former policy director, who generated some of these new ideas, says his party shouldn't be too cautious in the manifesto when it comes to offering more rights to working parents; standing up to business wont be harmful economically or electorally. TAYLOR: I think that on the issue of work, life, balance that probably, that business is probably hectoring government, it's exaggerating the damage. I actually think that a better set of work life policies would be good for productivity and other European countries have gone further and there's no evidence at all of problems resulting from that. WATSON: Cast your mind back to nineteen-ninety-seven and you may recall the phrase 'new Labour, new Britain'. Constitutional reform helped define Tony Blair's government - but it won't form a central section of this manifesto. There'll be plenty of rhetoric on giving power back to people; Labour will offer regional assemblies where there's demand, and, despite the Ken Livingstone fiasco, will create more city mayors. but some criticise this piecemeal approach. JACOBS: I think we do now need an overall constitutional blueprint which brings together reform of the Lords, which is very much unfinished business, with a regional government for England which is the unfinished business of devolution, with an improvement in the powers and status of local government which is absolutely crucial to deliver high quality public services, I don't see how you can do that without having an overall plan WATSON: So, if Tony Blair really wants to see a more meritocratic nation by two-thousand-and-five, radically different from the Britain took on, will he be able to put an inspiring package to voters now, in his two-thousand-and-one manifesto which will also fire the enthusiasm of his own supporters? JACOBS: I think many people confuse new with radical, and that what people are asking is that Labour should have lots of new things, perhaps rather gimmicky things which don't add up to much, when in fact the ideas and ambitions and objectives it's got are radical. Think of European levels of public service, think of full employment, eradicating child poverty, these are not new but they're certainly radical if you look at the state of the country at the moment and the country that Labour inherited. TAYLOR: I think the reality is this, at the end of Labour's first term, it's a general view of progressives is, if it's the first chapter it's not a bad first chapter, we're looking forward to the rest of the book. If it was the whole of the story it would be a disappointment. WATSON: But some say Labour's ambitions are limited by space and time; they want to maintain into the future the grand coalition of support they built in nineteen-ninety-seven; so 'big vision' politics can be counterproductive. COLLINS: Every coherent tale that you tell about a government deliberately marks out enemies; it defines you against someone else, and in so far as this term of government has been an attempt to avoid doing any such thing then incoherence has been its friend. WATSON: Losing the prize of an historic second term has been something of a worry for Labour party members; they dare not risk a journey back to the political wilderness. But some say the government needs a clearer sense of direction, with a leadership more radical in its outlook; otherwise even after two terms, future political historians may say - Tony Blair. Who?
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.