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JOHN HUMPHRYS: David Willetts, you do have
a problem don't you, because, chopping and changing is the sort of language
that we heard over and over again in that film. You have been all over
the place in the last four years, haven't you?
DAVID WILLETTS: Well we also have an opportunity
now because the electorate have not been paying much attention to what
we've been saying in Opposition. They have been...
HUMPHRYS: ...interruption...
WILLETTS: ...and the election is
an opportunity for us to talk to the electorate about what we believe and
the reason why the election campaign is so important for us is it will
indeed enable us to resolve all those questions in your interview. We
will show that we believe in giving people greater control over their own
lives, and we'll also show that we value the national identity that holds
us together on these islands.
HUMPHRYS: Going to be very difficult
in the space of a few weeks to resolve the sorts of dilemmas that you have
been confronting unsuccessfully, judged by your own answer there for the
last four years.
WILLETTS: Well you say dilemmas,
I don't think these are dilemmas, I think that...
HUMPHRYS: ...differences, whatever
you want to call them...
WILLETTS: ...Conservatism, throughout
its two-hundred years history, seems to me it had at its root two principles,
the first is the principle of freedom, giving people the greatest possible
control over their own lives. The second is the principle of pride in
our nation, which involves celebrating the institutions that are an essential
part of our identity as a nation. Those remain the two key Conservative
principles. Now what we have to do in this election campaign is express
those in a language that is persuasive and attractive to people who have
probably not really focussed on the Conservative Party since they booted
us out four years ago.
HUMPHRYS: But don't people like
to think that their party has an ideology to which it cleaves. so that
they can understand...
WILLETTS: ...yes...
HUMPHRYS: ...ah, well you see,
you say yes to that, that's interesting, because both Mr. Hague and Mr.
Portillo told me just a few weeks ago that it doesn't have ideology any
longer, that's gone, we don't need it any longer, indeed, you know, that,
I questioned them quite closely about it, they volunteered that fact.
WILLETTS: Well, the nineteen-seventy-nine
Conservative Manifesto had as its opening sentence, the foreword by Margaret
Thatcher, the statement that what mattered for the Conservative Party,
was not ideology, but serving the interests and...
HUMPHRYS: ...you said ideology
mattered...
WILLETTS: ...but what matters,
is I would prefer to call it principles. What matters is, and the two
Conservative principles, that are as relevant now as they ever are, was
being first, freedom, and secondly, national identity and national, and
national, preserving the national interest. Now, what we have to do, and
the importance of this election campaign, is unlike I think some of the
analysis that we saw in your TV film, is it, the problem is not that floating
voters have wildly different views than core Tory supporters on a whole
range of issues like crime and tax and Europe, the views of the floating
voters, they're not sort of middle of the road wishy-washy, they're quite
robust, but the floating voters are probably not very interested in politics,
they've not been interested in the Conservative Party for the past four
years, so what they haven't done is register that we've got the policies
that will address their concerns.
HUMPHRYS: And they haven't registered
it, because, as I say, you seem to be all over the place on all sorts of
issues and that won't do will it? And you can't sort that out now in the
remaining few weeks. Let me if I may quote to you from your own very interesting
pamphlet, that you wrote just a couple of years ago, you quoted approvingly
Winston Churchill, you remember it, "It's not so much a program we require
as a theme, we're a lighthouse, not a shop window." Now the problem for
the voters, and it was exemplified, it was made very clear in that film
by Terry Dignan, is they can't see where that beam is going. It seems
to be here one minute, it seems to be there the next, the next, they don't
know where you are.
WILLETTS: Well, I think that the
lighthouse, which is indeed what the Conservative Party should be, that
the lighthouse is saying, first of all, people are fed-up with nannying,
regulating, interfering, bossy government, and that's why they want more
control over their own lives, and it links together education, where the
Head teachers are fed up with all the interference and the regulations,
through to tax, where people are fed-up with the stealth taxes, and the
second thing they want is a party that will stand up for our national interest,
which both means battling for Britain in Europe, it also mean protecting
a constitution which has worked for centuries. Now it seems to me that
those are good robust Tory themes, but we're living in two-thousand-and-one,
and we need to express them in a language and embody them in a set of policies
that reach out to the people that we saw in your film, and that's what
we're going to do in the election campaign.
HUMPHRYS: You do indeed, and you
mentioned tax there, so let me turn to the economy, you chopped and changed
on the economy so often that it's positively bewildering. The minimum
wage, you were opposed to it, it was going to destroy jobs, you now approve
of the minimum wage. The Bank of England, ridiculous thing to do to give
it its independence over interest rates, you now have signed up to that.
You've also signed up to the Labour Party's, the government spending program,
a program that Mr. Portillo himself described as irresponsible. What is
the voter to make of all this?
WILLETTS: We have not signed up
to Labour's spending program, what we have said is...
HUMPHRYS: ...well almost all of
it. A mere smidgeon you have got to chop off...
WILLETTS: ...we have accepted their
plans in areas such as health and schools, but we've identified eight-billion
pounds of savings, and we are going to put those into tax cuts...
HUMPHRYS: ...of nearly four-hundred
billion?
WILLETTS; And that's the tax cuts
for two-thousand-and-three, two-thousand-and-four, let's hope they can
be bigger after that. But it actually ties in with the analysis in your
film, because it's a very good example of how the Conservative Party stays
committed to lower tax, but the way we express that has changed. We used
to focus entirely on the basic rate of income tax, and when the base rate
of income tax is thirty-five per cent, obviously cutting it is high priority.
Now that the basic rate of income tax is lower, we are offering cuts in
income tax in a different way. There are tax cuts for families, particularly
for the one-earner couples that Labour doesn't value, there are tax cuts
for pensioners and there are tax cuts on savings. So this is the traditional
Tory commitment to cutting income tax, but expressed in a different way
to take account of current problems.
HUMPHRYS: But these are tax cuts
right at the very margin. As you say, you're talking about spending eight-billion
pounds less than the Conservatives out of a total of nearly four-hundred-billion
pounds, so according to my arithmetic, that is two per cent that you're
going to knock off people's taxes. Two per cent. It's hardly fundamental,
is it?
WILLETTS: Well, I would love to
see bigger tax cuts as the next Conservative government proceeds, and as
we get a grip on public spending, and of course, under this government
it's planned to rise much more rapid in the economy, as we get a grip on
public spending the size of those tax cuts can grow. But it's very important
that what we offer is credible, and carefully costed and people believe
that we can deliver it. Now I would rather that we build up gradually,
rather than promising more than we can deliver, because after all, we've
seen with Labour the problem of a government that raises expectations in
order to get elected, and then leaves people disillusioned and fed-up because
they fail to deliver on their promises.
HUMPHRYS: But it's not exactly
a great rallying cry is it? You know, this image of a light-house, this
very powerful image of a light-house, it's more a sort of flickering candle,
you know, if the breeze is in the right direction and it doesn't blow the
flame too much, we may be able to give you a couple of percentage points
off this or that or the other, but maybe not, depending on where it's going
to go. Maybe next time we'll be able to do a little bit more, but maybe
not, doesn't seem as if you believe passionately in this does it?
WILLETTS: Well, the income tax
is part of a wider story, and what everyone says, there is a common theme,
what everyone says is, whether it's stealth taxes, or it's beaurocratic
red tape in the health service and in education, or it's the sheer burden
of regulation on business, particularly small business, everybody says,
they're fed-up with this government because they interfere so much in people's
lives and businesses. And what will hold together the Manifesto policy
proposals, will be that theme of getting government out of the way, because
we as Conservatives are optimistic about what people and businesses can
achieve, if government doesn't tie them down with all this nannying, bossying
red tape, that's a very powerful theme which strikes a chord...
HUMPHRYS: Well, but we've heard
it before, that's the trouble, we have heard that before and it hasn't
necessarily been delivered upon. Indeed Michael Heseltine himself admitted
that he didn't have the great bonfire of red tape that he wanted. But
let me just remind you again abut what you said and about what Michael
Dobbs said, the former Party Deputy Chairman, said in that film. You said,
look, do not try to copy the Government, it confuses your friends and doesn't
win over your enemies. Michael Dobbs said that's exactly what we're doing,
you're copying the Government.
WILLETS: I don't know how he thinks
that we're copying the Government.
HUMPHRYS: Look at your policies.
WILLETS: Well, what we have to
do as a responsible opposition is that we can't simply say everything
that this government has done since May 1997 we will repeal because that
would simply mean that the next Conservative government would spend its
time passing legislation which is entirely preoccupied with what this Government
had done and not with implementing our vision. So you do have reluctantly
to accept that when a government has been elected and is in office some
things that it does sadly cannot be reversed, but we do have a vision of
a better Britain, a responsible society where people can have more control
of their own lives, but also, and this is the other part of the story,
where they can feel proud in a country, in Great Britain in a sense of
national identity that's not, and I know that this is very important because
there's such a lot of confusion on this at the moment, this is nothing
to do with race, but it is all to do with loving our country because we
love the institutions which have given us one of the most tolerant societies
in the world.
HUMPHRYS: Well, fine, but the trouble
is that it has, this argument has become one whether we like it or not,
has become one about race, and you do have a very serious problem here,
because it's another one of those areas where people don't know where you
stand. You give out one particular message, you say we want this to be
an inclusive nation and it's all sort of warm and cuddly stuff, on the
other hand you play the immigration card in a very, very powerful way indeed.
You play the asylum card in a very, very powerful way indeed. Now people
don't know what you are on about here, they don't know whether you want
to be tough on asylum as you say, or whether you want to be inclusive as
you say and you might say, well, of course we can be both. You know we
can be tough on dodgy asylum seekers, bogus asylum seekers, but it's the
message that you're giving that confuses people.
WILLETTS: Right, well, the message
of Conservatism throughout its history has been very clear. As William
was saying the other day just as we are the first party to have a Jewish
Prime Minister, the first party to have a woman Prime Minister, he thinks
we could be the first party to have an Asian Prime Minister. So we're as
a party and Conservatism is all about celebrating and protecting the institutions
which hold us together on these isles, which enable us all to rub along
together and which are the root of so much tolerance in British life.
That is not the sort of blood and soil nationalism that you see sometimes
on the Continent. That has never been the stuff of Conservatism and so
that is absolutely clear and William has made it clear.
HUMPHRYS: So why then do we hear
people like Lord Taylor, who is perhaps the most prominent black member
of your party saying as he said again this morning on the radio, you want
to have it both ways on these issues.
WILLETTS: Well, we don't want to
have it both ways if that's the expression he used.
HUMPHRYS: Those were exactly his
words.
WILLETTS: We are clear on it.
What the problem is that the Labour Party are afraid that our message on
asylum which is genuine and robust, that there are too many asylum seekers
reaching this country when they're travelling across the other member states
of Europe where they ought to be taken and looked after and their cases
assessed - that because there are so many asylum seekers entering this
country which is a legitimate source of popular concern, Labour are trying
to intimidate us from raising the issue.....
HUMPHRYS: ..no, but this is John
Taylor, he's a Conservative.
WILLETTS: ... by deliberately confusing
it with racism. It is nothing to do with racism.
HUMPHRYS: Well, then it's John
Taylor who must be confused then. And he's a man who knows a thing or
two about this. I mean what he says is you want to have it both ways.
What they're saying is that whatever you say people from the minority,
the ethnic community, the minority community simply do not believe you
on race. You're not even prepared to listen to them. Apparently John
Taylor, I heard him say it myself this morning, he said he's offered to
talk to William Hague about it, he knows a thing or two about the subject,
he went through a very bruising election didn't he, in Cheltenham, very
unpleasant indeed. Mr Hague hasn't even said, come and have a chat with
me. He's just not interested in talking to him.
WILLETTS: Well, I think that if
you look at William Hague's record, not least securing us two British Asian
Members of the European Parliament, the first two Asian MEPs in this country...
HUMPHRYS: Members of the British
Parliament.
WILLETTS: ....and I hope and believe
and are proud of the fact that we have got more candidates from a variety
of backgrounds this time than ever before facing election, but the important
point is that for us in the manifesto we will paint a vision of our country
which both offers people the prospect of greater freedom, greater power
over their own lives and also shows that we as Conservatives are proud
of our country and don't like the way that both through European federalism
and also through an ill considered constitutional agenda this country is
destroying some of the things that make our country distinctive.
HUMPHRYS: Can I ask you who you
would prefer to have in your party, John Taylor, a black member of the
House of Lords, or John Townend, retiring Conservative MP, who says the
sorts of things that so upset people like Lord Taylor and indeed many other
people.
WILLETTS: Well John Taylor is a
valued member of the team in the House of Lords. John Townend, who has
served for a long time as a Conservative MP but what John has been saying
recently is completely unacceptable.....
HUMPHRYS: So who would prefer to
have in the Party.
WILLETTS: Well let me just finish
on John Townend, it's not the view of the Conservative Party and I think
that what John has done is...
HUMPHRYS: Which one, Townend....
WILLETTS: Sorry what John Townend
has done has played into this Labour trick of trying to confuse the legitimate
question of asylum seekers with a completely separate question
of race.
HUMPHRYS: So who would you prefer
to have in the Party, which of those two would you prefer to have in the
Party?
WILLETTS: Well John Taylor, so
far as I know, has taken the Conservative position within the House of
Lords. John Townend in his recent remarks has not been speaking for the
Conservative Party and I don't believe that what he says in any way reflects
the Conservative Party..
HUMPHRYS: ..but he hasn't had the
whip withdrawn from him because your leader says well, it would just be
a gesture. But it would be a gesture that people like John Taylor very
much want to see. So you would prefer, I mean you are quite clear, you
would prefer, if I may put words into your mouth just to save a little
bit of time, you would prefer Lord Taylor in the Party than John Townend
in the Party.
WILLETTS: Well I don't accept what
John Townend is saying and William has made it clear that he will not accept
what John Townend is doing and William has not ruled out further action
if that proves to be necessary.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, he hasn't ruled out
further action.
WILLETTS: He has not ruled out
further action if that proves to be necessary...
HUMPHRYS: And what would cause
it to be necessary, I mean he keeps doing the things you don't want him
to do, so, I mean if he pops up on another programme tomorrow and says
the same sort of thing, then that's it, three strikes and you're out, is
that it?
WILLETTS: All I can say is that
what John Townend has been saying over the past few weeks is not the view
of the Conservative Party and the view of the Conservative Party is why
we fight an important battle on asylum and asylum seekers, that battle
must not be impeded by people from the Labour Party or elsewhere trying
to claim that somehow that means we are racists. That is not the case.
HUMPHRYS: In that case why don't
you refer him to the Ethics and Integrity Committee because it was Mr
Hague who set that up and he set it up in order to prove that he was going
to be tough with people like this. Why doesn't he do that, he's done nothing
you see, apart from saying I don't like what he's saying, well big deal.
WILLETTS: Well so far that has
been what William has taken..has taken the view that it will be to raise
the profile of a subject when John Townend is going to cease to be a Member
of Parliament within the next ten days but we will have to see whether
these continuing problems lead to further action...
HUMPHRYS: Lord Taylor thinks it's
he hasn't ruled out further action, now it's important because Lord Taylor
seems to think he hasn't done anything so far because he's afraid of the
Right-wing of the party.
WILLETTS: William is a tough and
powerful leader and what William has been doing in the face of the adversity,
taking over a Party after it has suffered one of its worse landslide defeats,
we have been reorganised, we have produced..we democratised the Party,
we have produced a draft manifesto on which the party has voted and we
will be publishing a full manifesto when the election is called which will
show that we have a direction for our Party that will appeal not just to
our core supporters, important though they are, we will show how our messages
are equally relevant to the people whose support we must win back. We lost
them in 1997, we are committed to winning them back.
HUMPHRYS: David Willetts, thank
you very much indeed.
WILLETTS: Thank you.
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