BBC On The Record - Broadcast: 10.06.01

Film: TORY FILM%3A Who will lead the Tories after their second landslide defeat? And what direction will they need to take the Party in to win back more support?



TERRY DIGNAN: Has there ever been a darker hour in the history of the Conservative Party? Few here in Smith Square, home to the party's HQ, can recall anything quite as calamitous. The search has begun - both for an explanation of what went wrong - and for someone to lead the party into a bright new dawn. But it means revisiting the potentially divisive issues of Europe, taxation and the party's ability to adapt to the modern world. Two devastating election defeats have left the Conservative Party uncertain about its future. Many of its MPs feel radical changes are needed. But they can't agree on what direction the party should take. To unlock the reasons behind the latest landslide defeat, some Conservatives say where better to start than at Central Office where the party's campaign was planned and put into operation. MICHAEL HESELTINE: The strategy was to choose a number of issues which enabled the Party to be labelled as right-wing, hard-nosed, unsympathetic. JOHN MAPLES MP: If we continue to be obsessed with issues that concern us and don't concern the floating voters and we do so in terms which appear to them to be extreme we won't win elections, we won't gain their votes. LAURENCE ROBERTSON MP: We really do need to be very careful that we don't exclude the concerns of our great core support, which we've enjoyed for so many years, I think it is important that we keep our traditional values in the Conservative Party. DIGNAN: The prospect of a leadership contest is concentrating the minds of Conservative MPs on the kind of party they want to represent. No longer will William Hague sit at a desk trying to balance the concerns of floating voters against the party's traditional values. He has done the decent thing. The favourite to take over is Michael Portillo. Thinking it over, Ann Widdecombe. A strong contender would be Iain Duncan Smith. David Davis is being encouraged to stand. From the pro-European wing of the party, there's Kenneth Clarke, of course. Others who are said to be tempted are John Redwood and Andrew Lansley. In a series of ballots, Conservative MPs will whittle down the contestants to just two - they'll go forward to the next round, when party members will make the final choice as to who should lead them. But the path to power involves a detour into the past of Michael Portillo. He has been on a personal quest for a new political credo. Gone is the uncaring dogmatist. In his place a more tolerant Portillo, a Conservative who values cultural and sexual diversity - and who wants to appeal beyond the Tory core vote. TIM YEO MP: Any leader who's going to be successful must be prepared to take on in a much more inclusive way, the kind of dialogue which people in the centre, the floating voters, want to engage in and it does mean not just pleasing the readers of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph. ALAN DUNCAN MP: I think the way for us to step into the middle ground which the likes of Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine quite reasonably say we need to occupy, is to look at the social agenda more than anything else and I think the future of the Conservative Party lies in euro-sceptic, social liberalism, but I'd put the stress on the social liberalism. DIGNAN: But this search for a new kind of Conservatism fails to inspire some on the right of the party. They fear it leads nowhere. A better guide to success for them would be a renewed debate about how to achieve less Government and lower taxation. ERIC FORTH MP: I'm not sure I quite understand what this inclusive thing is, if it's not just words and where it leads in policy terms, but I don't think that's the way forward at all. Can't we have an adult, mature debate about whether or not the government is actually the best agency to be running, well I don't know, anything at all? I think we've got to get back into that debate and not be frightened off by people talking about this nonsense about lifestyle or whatever it is is now the trendy thing to discuss. DIGNAN: But others fear the party will never emerge from the shadows if it makes tax cuts a priority. They argue the election result showed that voters no longer share the Conservatives preoccupation with taxation. MAPLES: Most peoples concerns was improvement of public services and somehow they felt that you know tax cuts would be at the expense of those services. YEO: I think on the question of taxation, people at the moment do not feel over taxed, except perhaps on the issue of fuel tax where we are paying higher taxes than anywhere less in Europe. DIGNAN: Portillo's commitment to lower taxation is now questioned on the right. That could give an opportunity to, David Davis, who opted to chair the powerful Commons Public Accounts Committee rather than join the Shadow Cabinet. It means he lacks a high profile outside Parliament but his supporters are urging him to stand. FORTH: I'm hoping that my friend and colleague David Davis will offer himself as a potential leader of the party. I think that he's shown in the past four years as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee that he's able to play a leading role in holding the government to account in a number of different ways and has done that I think very successfully. But he's also demonstrated that he's capable of real thought about policy, about what we are and what we want to be and about the way ahead. DIGNAN: Those who want a more tolerant, inclusive Conservative Party may face a battle in the coming weeks with the forces of social authoritarianism, those politicians who stress the importance of moral values. Their leading lights are regarded as Ann Widdecombe and Shadow Defence Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. But some Conservatives say the party has suffered enough from sounding tough. DUNCAN: I think it has looked too bossy and it's looked too nasty. I said to someone once you know it's all very well you wanting us to appear to be once again the stupid party but why make us the nasty party as well. There's no need for it. YEO: We need to have someone who looks friendly, who looks inclusive, who accepts a whole variety of different lifestyles, doesn't make judgements about them, but does help people enjoy the opportunities which exist. It needs to be a leader who recognises that we've got to reach out more widely and therefore is not simply going to say, I am going to talk about asylum seekers or the length of prison sentences. DIGNAN: Cue Ann Widdecombe. As Shadow Home Secretary her tough line on asylum and law and order wowed the party conference. But she also has strong views on marriage, abortion and homosexuality. A little bit too strong for some of her fellow Conservative MPs and for the euro-sceptics among them, there's another problem. BILL CASH MP: Nobody really knows quite where Ann Widdecombe stands on the European issue and I don't think myself that however much she may be able to do a good job on the party conference platform, that that would be in itself enough. I don't really see her as a credible leader of the Conservative Party. DIGNAN: Iain Duncan Smith's views on Europe are less of a mystery. He's said to be sympathetic to toughening the party's line on the single currency. Which means he could appeal to a large section of the party, including those who believe in traditional Conservative values on other issues. ROBERTSON: I think the Conservative Party does have to re-establish itself as a Conservative, as a Tory Party and that means belief in the nation state. It means belief in the family as a cornerstone of society and it means belief in the sound economy. CASH: I think Iain Duncan Smith does have incredible credibility, precisely because particularly on the European issue, he was not associated with for example signing up to the Maastricht Treaty. ANDREW ROSINDELL MP: No Conservative government that believes in the nation can ever give away control of its currency and abolish the pound and I think we have to be clear about that, it is a matter of principle. It's not an option for a few years and then we'll think again later, if we keep the pound we keep our independence. So this must be a permanent policy for the Conservative Party. DIGNAN: There are signs of even further restlessness over Europe. Although some are alarmed at the prospect of re opening internal party divisions, there are those who want to find a way to disentangle the United Kingdom from what is described as a European federal state. ROSINDELL: It's not a question of just being in the existing arrangements, we have to have new arrangements that suit Britain - the existing arrangements don't. NIGEL EVANS MP: The Conservative Party at Westminster is generally of the centre right but we are a broad church and I think that if the centre right decide that right we're going to get somebody who is seen as being very right wing or indeed a euro-sceptic right winger and spends most of their time trying to alienate the other side, then we are not only just going to alienate parts of the parliamentary party but I think we are going to alienate the country as well. DIGNAN: Kenneth Clarke would agree. He's been here before. He knows his support for joining the euro is shared by only a minority of Conservative MPs - although some argue he would be the most popular choice among the voters. MICHAEL HESELTINE: My own clear view is that the Party having decided how to reposition itself, should look for someone who can win and the evidence will be very clear as to who that will be and certainly at the moment, it is self-evidently Ken Clarke, who is streets ahead of anybody else in terms of what the public want. CASH: I don't believe that Kenneth Clarke would be a credible contender for a very simple reason, that he is clearly in favour of monetary union, he has said so. DIGNAN: But should the new Conservative leader at Westminster, in the cause of party unity, hold out an olive branch to pro-Europeans like Kenneth Clarke by bringing them back into the Shadow Cabinet - at the cost of allowing them to campaign in favour of joining the euro in a referendum. DAMIAN GREEN MP: It would be sensible for any leader at anytime not to set up a single policy area as a kind of qualification test. That any sensible party in a first past the post political system needs to be a broad church if it wants to win elections. EVANS: Members of the Shadow Cabinet and the Parliamentary Party are going to have to have the freedom to be able to speak out on issues like the single currency so that there wouldn't be a three line whip on the Parliamentary Party on that issue, we're just going to have to be more mature about it that's all. Ken has played an enormous role in the Conservative Party in the past and has been missed I have to say over this parliamentary session and I just hope that we are able to bring forward people of Ken's calibre into the Shadow Cabinet if he so wishes to play a part. CASH: I hear that some people are saying that Kenneth Clarke could come back into the Shadow Cabinet and also campaign in favour of the euro in a referendum. These things are mutually inconsistent and it would just be a fundamental illustration of the ridiculous position in which the Conservative Party could get itself. DIGNAN: The Conservative Party has started out on a new chapter in its long life in the most dismal of circumstances. Reminders of a glorious past serve only to reinforce the party's central dilemma - that it is a long way from finding the policies - or the leader - to inspire the voters it needs to win back power.
NB. This transcript was typed from a transcription unit recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.