JOHN     HUMPHRYS:                Well it was a bad 
result for people who support the Northern Ireland peace agreement. For 
David Trimble, the leader of the Ulster Unionists, it was verging on the 
disastrous. His party still has the largest number of seats but only just. 
Only one more than his old enemy Ian Paisley who wants to kill the agreement. 
Mr Trimble has already said he will resign his leadership if the IRA does 
not begin to get rid of its weapons. But many people are now saying he 
should go anyway. His credibility has been shattered. Mr Trimble is in 
our Belfast studio.

                        Good afternoon, Mr Trimble. 


DAVID TRIMBLE:                Good day. 

HUMPHRYS:                    It was a pretty dreadful 
result wasn't it. Can you stay on do you think?

TRIMBLE:                    It was a great disappointment, 
there's no doubt about that.  But let's bear in mind, let's put it in perspective, 
yes overall we lost three seats, but we made two gains.  We defeated Bob 
McCartney, the leader of one of the anti-agreement Unionist parties, we 
defeated Willie McCrea and we put up our percentage share of the vote compared 
to the Assembly Election and I think that's the valid comparison. May I 
also correct something that you said, I have indicated that I shall not 
continue as First Minister beyond the 30th June unless the IRA carry out 
the promise they made to us a year ago, to put their weapons beyond use. 
The question of the party leadership is something which interestingly will 
be considered at the Annual General Meeting of the party which takes place 
just within a fortnight. The leadership is an annual election and I shall 
be there, I shall be available to be re-elected at that meeting and if 
anybody else wishes to put themselves up for that post, they are very welcome 
to do so and I shall be quite happy to abide the outcome of the votes of 
the council as I have been repeatedly throughout this process.   

HUMPHRYS:                    Do you have any indication 
that somebody else will put himself up?

TRIMBLE:                    Well there's the usual 
sort of press speculation you get on this occasions. But what I am saying 
to you is that I am not scared of a challenge.  I have been absolutely 
open with the party through this process and the party has held its nerve 
and that's what I would say to them at the moment, hold your nerve, you 
kept  your nerve when the party got twenty-one point seven per cent of 
the vote in the Assembly Election, you kept your nerve when the party vote 
dropped to seventeen per cent in the European Election, don't lose your 
nerve because the vote has gone up to twenty-seven per cent this week. 


HUMPHRYS:                    But, I mean the problem 
is this isn't it, that most of the Unionists in Northern Ireland and most 
Unionist MPs in Northern Ireland are now - well you shake your head but 
I was going to say, against the agreement and I include not just of course 
Ian Paisley's DUP, but also those of your own MPs who are opposed to the 
agreement. 

TRIMBLE:                    Well, first of all the 
votes, the votes are absolutely quite clear on this, the Ulster Unionist 
Party fought on a manifesto very clearly trying to achieve progress and 
achieve the full implementation of the agreement. That manifesto was endorsed 
by more votes than the DUP. So you can't draw any judgement with regard 
to Unionist voters from that.  Some of my colleagues have reservations 
about the agreement.  I mean I quite clearly, it's quite obvious that the 
implementation of the agreement has not been perfect, indeed, I think this 
is a time for the government, the British government in particular, and 
to some extent the Irish government too, to pause and reflect that the 
way they have handled the implementation of some aspects of the agreement 
has caused serious problems for the centre parties and we've had a disappointing 
result, John Hume's SDLP have  had a disastrous result, it's the extremes 
that have grown. I think Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern should sit down and 
think very carefully why have their actions resulted in a strengthening 
of the extremes and a weakening of the centre. That reverses what everybody 
would regard as the proper priorities in building a new democratic future 
here in Northern Ireland. 

HUMPHRYS:                    The government, the British 
government wants to have another meeting, another get together to talk 
about the agreement. Is there any point in that? - your position is perfectly 
clear. Can you see any point, you say nothing now unless and until we have 
proper decommissioning. 

TRIMBLE:                    It's time for people to 
do things, there is really not very much to talk about, no doubt there 
will be a flurry of political activity but we don't build those up as being 
talks or negotiations.  There was a promise made, there's an obligation 
in the agreement to decommission, there was a promise made by the IRA, 
thirteen months ago not yet fulfilled, no wonder there are difficulties 
on that point. There was an intention to in the agreement to have an administration 
where those in the administration supported those who had to enforce the 
laws, namely the police, we've had the administration in existence for 
over a year, it's still..Nationalists are dithering and indeed trying to 
turn what their obligation into a negotiation. Now I think that is quite 
wrong and indeed actually, the evidence on the ground is that the Catholic 
community is way ahead of their leaders on this and that they are buying 
into the new policing arrangements and want to see the police made effective. 
 It's time for Nationalists to stop dragging their feet and let us get 
those issues dealt with.  

HUMPHRYS:                    So you wouldn't be interested 
in going along to any talks unless it was purely to talk..or negotiations, 
whatever you want to call them, unless it was purely to talk about decommissioning, 
that's the only thing you are now prepared to talk about. 

TRIMBLE:                    That's all that is actually 
going to be talked about. In fact if there are meetings, if there is this 
political activity, it is going to be about getting the agreement fully 
implemented, it's the failure to implement the agreement fully that has 
caused the difficulties and it is the way in which the government has seemed 
to have as it's first priority, that of appeasing the extremes and, as 
it were, feeding more concessions to the extremes. That has caused the 
difficulty I think, as I say Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern should sit down 
and reflect how their stewardship of this process has run it into a crisis. 


HUMPHRYS:                    Your - as you said earlier 
in this interview, your resignation as First Minister is on the table, 
you've logged it with the Speaker, has anything happened in the last few 
weeks to change your attitude to that because we have seen the arms..some 
arms dumps being re-inspected, there has been some movement hasn't there. 


TRIMBLE:                    There hasn't been any 
movement on the issue of the implementation of the IRA's promise to put 
their weapons beyond use.  It is that that I drew a line under with regard, 
I mean having waited thirteen months for the IRA to keep its word, I think 
it's not reasonable to expect us to wait any longer and the deadline incidentally 
wasn't mine but it was set by the government itself and indeed the letter 
is a message to the government, that don't try to fudge it this time because 
we are not in the business, we're not in the market for fudge.

HUMPHRYS:                    The trouble is, we are 
not clear are we quite, at least I'm not clear, perhaps I'm alone in this, 
in what you mean when you say, put them beyond use. If, after all, John 
de Chastelain and his inspectors go along and they say, look these dumps 
have not been touched, they are sealed off, they are absolutely pristine, 
then is that not putting weapons beyond use?

TRIMBLE:                    Well I think you've got 
to look at the structure that exists there, John de Chastelain isn't involved 
in the inspection of dumps himself...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...not him personally, 
no, no, but...

TRIMBLE:                    ...no that's a separate 
process.  Furthermore, de Chastelain operates under legislation which defines 
decommissioning as making weapons permanently unusable, permanently unavailable 
and we have all assumed that when the IRA says put beyond use, they mean 
something that is permanently unusable and permanently unavailable. The 
precise way in which that is done is not for me.  I'm quite happy to leave 
that to John de Chastelain, provided we get something that comes within 
his statutory remit. 

HUMPHRYS:                    But you seem to be clear, 
correct me if I'm wrong, that you want, you require in order to withdraw 
your resignation, the letter, you require more than another inspection 
or two or three more inspections?

TRIMBLE:                    Oh yes.  Oh yes.  I mean 
the inspection process is quite separate from the decommissioning process, 
that's always been the case and it's natural I suppose for people to say, 
run them two together in their minds, but they are in fact quite separate 
and while the inspections are welcome when they began, now they're not 
actually something that are regarded as being particularly significant.

HUMPHRYS:                    So the dumps would either 
have to be sealed off, or the weapons within them destroyed or some such.

TRIMBLE:                    Made permanently unusable, 
permanently unavailable, but there are a variety of ways in which that 
can be done. I am not concerned as to the methodology provided we get the 
result.

HUMPHRYS:                    So unless that begins, 
just to be quite clear about this, unless some weapons, I take it you don't 
mean all by that particular date, correct me again if I'm wrong, but unless 
some weapons are actually destroyed, put permanently beyond use, your resignation 
stands?

TRIMBLE:                    Unless they are made permanently 
unusable, permanently unavailable, unless we see that happening, I do not 
see any way, I think I must say, and I must underline on this too, I think 
people haven't fully appreciated the fact that the legislation to provide 
for decommissioning expires next February, so we're actually in a situation 
now where it's absolutely imperative that we see that process clearly beginning 
now, because if we have another fudge then in a few months time we'll be 
left in a situation where it's simply impossible for any decommissioning 
to occur and then that would be, that would put Northern Ireland back into 
a situation where it is controlled and dominated by paramilitaries, that 
would be a situation where we are likely to see conflict re-ignited. It's 
absolutely crucial that the issue is sorted out now. That is why I adopted 
this measure, to make it clear to government that they have to do it, no 
more wishful thinking, let's actually get it sorted, that's the important 
thing. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Can the peace process 
survive without you?

TRIMBLE:                    The peace process cannot 
survive unless the Agreement is fully implemented and that involves the 
issues we have been talking about. It's getting the Agreement fully implemented. 
And of course if the agreement isn't fully implemented then the peace process 
has not succeeded and that is the crucial difficulty that we've been in 
in the course of this General Election campaign.

HUMPHRYS:                    If you go there will 
be a more hard line person presumably taking your place, it's dead then, 
isn't it?

TRIMBLE:                    No, let's not tie these 
things on personalities. It's the interests of the people that's the predominant 
issue here.

HUMPHRYS:                    David Trimble, thanks 
very much indeed.

TRIMBLE:                    Thank you.