JOHN HUMPHRYS:                John Reid, support for the 
Good Friday Agreement does seem to be slipping all the time, does that 
worry you?

JOHN REID:                    I think the point that 
was made there, is that there are a great deal of worries among Unionists. 
I wouldn't stand against the thrust of what you've said. Indeed, about 
six months' ago, having spoken to a lot of people and constantly being 
told about this by David Trimble, I myself tried to highlight this issue 
and I think there's a number of things we have to do. First of all, is 
to recognise that there are concerns among Unionists and to get rid of 
the idea that it is not possible for a majority to feel insecure, it is 
and I think there is an insecurity there to reassure people that we have 
no intention of expunging Britishness. Secondly, I think to let people 
know that we value Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom. There's 
no question about that, some years ago, we said and we meant it, that we 
had no selfish strategic and economic interest in being in Northern Ireland 
and holding onto Northern Ireland and it isn't for selfish reasons...

HUMPHRYS:                    It was taken to mean 
that you'd be happy to see a republic at the time, are we now seeing a 
change in emphasis here?

REID:                        Well, if people took 
it to mean that, then it did not mean that we wanted to see Northern Ireland 
leave the United Kingdom. We value the people of Northern Ireland being 
part of the United Kingdom as we do in Scotland and Wales. But of course 
that will be based on the free decision of free people with equal opportunities 
and of course, as long as they remain in the United Kingdom, we want to 
see that even those who feel of an Irish background or an Irish consciousness, 
as well as those who feel more British, feel comfortable in the United 
Kingdom. 

HUMPHRYS:                    And you want them to 
stay in the United Kingdom - is this what you are saying?

REID:                        Well, I'm saying 
we value them. The decision about whether Northern Ireland stays in the 
United Kingdom, similarly with Scotland and Wales, is a matter for the 
people of Northern Ireland. While they are in the United Kingdom, then 
we will do everything in our power to make sure that everyone, irrespective 
of background, has their rights protected, has equal opportunities. That 
the future of Northern Ireland will be decided by the people of Northern 
Ireland.   Now, what that means is, that we have to try and balance the 
decision of the majority as regards the constitutional status, which is 
to be part of the United Kingdom and at the same time, to recognise the 
diversity in Northern Ireland, that there are people who feel British and 
people who feel Irish, people who are Protestant and Catholic, Unionist 
and Nationalist and to try and make sure that there is a parity of esteem. 
It isn't always an easy thing, John, to marry these two decisions, the 
constitutional state and the recognition of diversity. But we are trying 
in partnership and I believe that having recognised there is a problem 
with Unionism, we are attempting to address that, to assure them that there 
is no attempt about, I believe, the perception that there is an attempt 
to expunge Britishness is wrong, we want it to be a modern Britishness, 
which is inclusive, which is tolerant and finally, there is no inevitability 
about a united Ireland, there is no inevitability about anything, it depends 
on the people Northern Ireland themselves. But what is certainly true, 
is that we value Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom and we 
want all of the people of Northern Ireland to feel comfortable in that 
situation. 

HUMPHRYS:                    And people who hear that 
will say good, that's splendid, but let's judge by actions rather than 
by words, which is what you would expect them to do and when they look 
at the way the Good Friday Agreement has worked out, they say that isn't 
borne out, what you've just said isn't not borne out. Sydney Elliot, you 
saw him, you know him I'm sure...

REID:                        ...he's a very perceptive 
commentator. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Indeed, "Unionists feel 
you are the Secretary of State for Northern Catholics" is what he said. 


REID:                        Well, I think that 
if you start from the basis that everyone in Northern Ireland tends to 
regard everything as a zero sum game, so that whatever is given to, even 
to the benefit of everyone, if it's seen to be moving from the status quo, 
it must be taken from those who previously benefited. That is one of the 
problems of handling this peace problem. I have no problem in recognising 
that. I, secondly, I am aware of the perception that on balance there has 
been more taken away from Unionists and from those who feel British and 
given to those who are of an Irish background.

HUMPHRYS:                    You acknowledge that, 
right. 

REID:                        Well, wait a minute 
John. I acknowledge that there is a perception among Unionists...

HUMPHRYS:                    Let's look at the reality.

REID:                        Well, I'm going to 
look at the reality. If we look at the Belfast agreement for instance, 
the principle of Unionism, which is that the majority decision on constitutional 
status should be recognised by everyone on the basis of a democratic majority, 
that is now incorporated, everyone accepts that...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...okay, I fully accept 
that...

REID:                        ...well, these are 
important...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...but I want to get 
on to some very important things as well. 

REID:                        Secondly, the Republic 
of Ireland of course has taken away its territorial claim...

HUMPHRYS:                    ..I understand that..

REID:                        ...and even in the 
last year, we have had not only power sharing in an assembly, but we have 
had Nationalists now coming in to recognise and participate in policing. 
We've had the Irish Republican Army, having its first .....

HUMPHRYS:                    ...sure...

REID:                        ..so there have been 
steps in the direction that others would say, well these are responses 
to Unionism to given the reassurance.

HUMPHRYS:                    But let's look at the 
sorts of things that are worrying the Unionists. Sylvia Hermon, somebody 
else whom you greatly respect, Lady Hermon, talked about unpleasant and 
nasty little side agreements, and the sort of thing she's talking about 
is the amnesty for prisoners who are on the run. I mean there's some thoroughly 
nasty people out there on the run. Are they going to be given amnesty? 
These are people who are responsible for the most appalling murders. Now 
how can you say to the Protestants, on the one hand we are sympathetic 
to you, we're on your side as well as being on the other side, we're even-handed, 
and yet allow these murderers to have a kind of amnesty. I mean, it just 
doesn't seem natural justice, does it?

REID:                        Well, Sylvia Hermon 
actually mentioned two things. One is policing, perhaps I can reply to 
that...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...indeed. And the........ 
on the amnesty.

REID:                        Let me deal with 
the question of those who are on the run. As you said, the question of 
releasing people who have been previously involved in some pretty awful 
crimes, most of them for political purposes, is an extremely painful one. 
It always has been John. When we released the prisoners...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...but this is a step 
further, this is the point, this is a step further. These people have never 
been to jail, some of them, they've paid no price at all for the terrible 
crimes they committed.

REID:                        I'm taking you through 
the logic of this John. It has always been an extremely painful one, and 
I am the first to recognise that, and it was when we released the prisoners 
after a much shorter period than they otherwise would have served. Arising 
out of that there comes an anomaly, that there are people, some of whom 
are apparently on the run, who actually have served...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...maybe sixty.

REID:                        ... some of whom 
have actually served longer in prison than some of those who were released 
for instance. There are also people who are outside the country against 
whom there is not evidence of any particular crime. These are anomalies 
arising out of it, anomalies we have said we want to resolve. Now is it 
an easy one to resolve. No it is not. People bring up the...and quite seriously 
in Parliament, have recently brought up the fact that there are others 
on the run from the IRA. People say "well, how could you deal with one 
side without dealing with the other side in this terrible war, security 
forces, police and so on. Will it extend to them?" And it's precisely because 
it is such a difficult issue that we've spent so much time thinking about 
it. So we are resolved to try and get a resolution of this and to do it 
in a way which recognises the pain and the sensitivity. But I say this 
finally, we have tried to solve a problem that has lasted for eight decades 
in Northern Ireland and eight centuries on the island of Ireland. It is 
a huge, most painful and political problem, the biggest in British history 
and there are times when we have to countenance distasteful things.

HUMPHRYS:                    Alright, let me put another 
distasteful thing to you in the eyes of many people. That is decommissioning. 
Nothing has happened effectively since last October and of course, we don't 
know precisely how much was given over then and we never will now I dare 
say. But you've sent the wrong signal here, I understand the difficulties 
of getting more decommissioning, but you send the wrong signal do you not, 
when you extend effectively, extend the deadline, the arms amnesty deadline, 
as it were, for another five years, and that is again from the point of 
view of the Protestants, it's a terrible thing to see happening.

REID:                        Well we didn't extend 
any deadline. There wasn't a deadline. What there was was a piece of legislation 
that made it lawful for people to deal with arms...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...Yes, indeed, absolutely...

REID:                        ...and it expired 
at the end of February. No-one, no-one in Northern Ireland thought that 
all weapons would have been decommissioned by the end of February, and 
if we hadn't extended the legislation, it means anybody...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...five years is the 
point I'm making...

REID:                        ...well John, it 
would mean that if we, if I hadn't done that, and the IRA or the Loyalists, 
and we want them both to decommission, put their weapons beyond use, if 
any of them had turned round tomorrow and said "we want to do it" we'd 
have had to said "no you can't do it because it's unlawful."

HUMPHRYS:                    Sorry to have to cut 
you off, but in the last few seconds, do you believe you run the risk of 
the Ulster Unionist Party losing even more support, and ultimately, instead 
of having to deal with David Trimble, you might have to deal with Ian Paisley. 
Is that a worry? Just in a few seconds, I'm sorry to rush you.

REID:                        All of the points 
that have been made today have been made forcibly to me by David Trimble 
who's by far the most articulate exponent of these views within Unionism. 
It's precisely why I've said what I've said today, that we value the Unionists, 
we have no intention any more than we want to isolate those from an Irish 
or a Catholic background, we have no intention of allowing their culture 
to be expunged or to be obliterated or to be pushed and there is no inevitability 
that that will happen. It is a difficult historic compromise to make, but 
we recognise the role of Unionism and the role of Northern Ireland in the 
United Kingdom.

HUMPHRYS:                    John Reid, thank you 
very much indeed for joining us today.

REID:                        Thank you John.