JOHN HUMPHRYS:                David Trimble, has there 
been a clear breach of the IRA cease-fire and do you want Tony Blair to 
rule so?

DAVID TRIMBLE:                It's not a question of do 
I want the government to rule this or to rule that,.  It's a matter of 
what is the truth, and the truth was stated, my understanding of it was 
stated a couple of weeks ago by a senior police officer in Belfast.   He 
said that all the paramilitary organisations had been engaged in violence, 
and indeed referring to the very bad violence in Short Strand a fortnight 
ago, said that it was orchestrated by Republicans, and that senior Republicans, 
senior members of the IRA, which are supposed to be in a cease-fire, were 
there orchestrating the events, and I've got deep suspicions too as to 
just exactly what was the reason for the rioting that broke out on Thursday 
when there was an initiative coming from Loyalist paramilitaries to try 
and calm the situation down.  So there's no doubt in my mind about what 
the facts are.  The unfortunate aspect of the matter is that the Northern 
Ireland Office and Downing Street don't seem to have the courage to tell 
the truth.
                        
HUMPHRYS:                    And what you're saying 
is that they should tell the truth by which you mean, say there has been 
a breach of the cease-fire and act accordingly.  Is that what you're saying?

TRIMBLE:                    I think it's essential 
that we face the realities and we tell the truth, and that we do so in 
order to sustain confidence amongst ordinary people.   And we mustn't always 
look at this question of political faction and in-fighting in particular 
parties.  The most important thing is the people of Northern Ireland and 
retaining confidence with them in that there is a process which is going 
to move forward and that the government will act as guardian of that process. 
 You see, paramilitaries are bound to try and push the envelope out to 
see how much they can get away with, and the big mistake that government 
has been making is allowing them to get away with things.   And you can 
probably put on fairly modest constraints if you moved quickly, but the 
more the government delays the more likely it's going to have to act in 
a quite an extensive and dramatic way..

HUMPHRYS:                    You say modest restraints, 
such as what?

TRIMBLE:                    Well, something that has 
actually happened is that a number of persons who benefited from the early 
release programme have been returned to prison because they have been involved 
in apparent violent activity.  Unfortunately it's been entirely one-sided, 
and the only paramilitaries that have been returned to prison have been 
Loyalists.  But yet Republicans have also been heavily involved in violence, 
but the Northern Ireland Office seems to be unwilling to apply sanctions 
to them, but they've been quite happy to return members of the UDA to prison, 
and to declare the UDA cease-fire to be ineffective, presumably because 
they reckon that there have been no political consequences from that.  
So you see what is happening is that by its actions the Northern Ireland 
Office is making it clear that the law, and keeping the peace, have been 
made subordinate to political considerations, and that is a fatal mistake 
which they must reverse.

HUMPHRYS:                    So in other words they 
must declare the IRA cease-fire to be ineffective, and you would like to 
see some IRA people being returned to prison.  You're quite clear about 
that?

TRIMBLE:                    I simply want the police 
to be encouraged, permitted to enforce the law, and when they find paramilitaries 
who have been involved in violence who were released early, that they should 
be returned to prison, yes.  That should happen because that is - those 
are the safeguards that were written into it at the time of the agreement. 
 And when we were asked to accept this quite remarkable arrangement to 
release people from prison we were told that there would be safeguards. 
 Now, you can't blame people for feeling annoyed when the government hasn't 
even applied the safeguards that it assured us they were going to take. 
 This is one of the reasons why there's a lack of confidence, because years 
ago at the time of the agreement we were given assurances, promises were 
made and the general perception, accurate in many cases is that the promises 
have not been kept.

HUMPHRYS:                    And should other sanctions 
be taken against Sinn Fein. Such as ending, withdrawing their privileges 
at Westminster?

TRIMBLE:                    Well, I think we should 
look very carefully, and government should look very carefully at this. 
 I mean, I think the key thing that the government has to do is to give 
people in Northern Ireland confidence that the law will be upheld, and 
that it will insist that the transition, and we all hoped and believed 
that a transition was taking place, that those who in the past had been 
involved in terrorism were on a course towards a purely peaceful and democratic 
life.  That transition must be sustained.  We are actually acting in an 
exceptional way in having an administration of this nature, but we're doing 
so in order to encourage a transition.  If that transition is not taking 
place, then the justification for our conduct disappears, so I think it's 
imperative that the government make it clear that, that transition will 
be insisted on, and that it will be actively seeking ways, not just to 
hang out carrots in front of people, but to look at what levers, what sticks 
might be available as well.

HUMPHRYS:                    But given that they are 
not at the moment as far as we know, prepared to use those levers and those 
sticks, why are you not saying to your own  members, right, we will have 
a vote in the assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly and do our damnedest 
to exclude Sinn Fein from the executive? 
                                                                      
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                    
TRIMBLE:                    When I consider that appropriate 
John, I'll do it.  I am able to say to people that I'm the only person 
that I know of who has voluntarily put himself out of office twice in order 
to sustain progress.  I have resigned, I have ensured at an earlier stage 
that there was a suspension of the assembly in order to sustain progress...

HUMPHRYS:                    And you're prepared to 
do it again?

TRIMBLE:                    ...if that happened  .When 
 the circumstances are right.  If it is necessary I'm quite happy to do 
it, but if I do this John, please, if I do it,  it will be in order to 
make progress, to make further progress in order to ensure that the agreement 
is fulfilled and fully implemented.  I will not be acting to destroy that 
agreement, because I know that agreement represents the best hope for the 
people of Northern Ireland.  And our present difficulties are coming because 
the paramilitaries on all sides, but particularly Sinn Fein and the IRA 
have not kept the agreement, and are not implementing it properly.   That's 
the problem.

HUMPHRYS:                    You clearly see it as 
a possibility that you will do it at some stage?

TRIMBLE:                    Clearly.

HUMPHRYS:                    David Trimble, thank 
you very much indeed.