JOHN HUMPHRYS:                You heard that Dr Reid, 
the ceasefire has been breached, there is no doubt about that in David 
Trimble's mind, is the government going to declare that is the case?

JOHN REID:                    We keep all the ceasefires 
under constant review and as the Acting Chief Constable said recently, 
he saw no imminent threat to the ceasefire as far as the IRA is concerned, 
but let me make one point John and that is that, this isn't just a matter 
of a ceasefire, it's a matter of retaining the confidence in this process, 
that the journey on which we have all embarked, which is to go from conflict 
and virtual war through to peace, is in fact a journey, as David Trimble 
said, which is continuing and that no-one should be under any illusions 
that there is somehow some half-way house where people can be involved 
in politics and that at the same time can maintain a level of some paramilitary 
violence of preparation for returning to terrorism or anything of that 
nature. That isn't the case and specifically as David Trimble raised it, 
let me make absolutely plain here, there are no political constraints in 
the police doing their job. They have to pursue that job wherever it leads 
them and in fact, recently there have charges been brought against someone 
for what could commonly be called, targeting, we are pursuing the break-in 
at the Castlereagh Special Branch Headquarters, that will be done without 
any constraints whatsoever. If that causes problems for the political process 
where that leads, then I'm afraid so be it.  So we will continue to review 
the ceasefires, we will continue to counter by any means we can, any level 
of paramilitary activity. But there is obviously, as David Ervine and David 
Trimble said, there's a problem in the process at the moment and that is 
that there is a lack of confidence that the journey away from violence, 
towards exclusively peaceful means is continuing and that is why we have 
taken urgent action, the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, the Irish Prime 
Minister, to call together the parties to address this in as open and as 
frank a way as possible because we are absolutely convinced that the best 
and indeed the only way in which to achieve the sort of Northern Ireland 
we want, is through this peace process and I have to say, David Trimble 
has shown a great deal of courage throughout this process in making sure 
that we continue that transition.  There are others as well, there are 
others as well, some of the critics who are sometimes called, you know 
anti-Agreement, I believe people like Jeffrey Donaldson want this agreement 
to work.   But it has to be seen to be moving as David Trimble said and 
we will make every effort to ensure that that transition continues. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Well, you say you will 
make every effort, you say that confidence must be retained. It's very 
hard to see how Unionist confidence can be retained in this process when 
they see the sorts of things that are going on at the moment. You mentioned 
yourself the break-in to Castlereagh, we have seen the shootings in the 
Short Strand, we have seen the IRA training in Colombia, its own terrorists 
trying out new weapons. Well now, if that is not a breach of the ceasefire, 
then it's very hard, by the time you end all that up and all the other 
things, you add it all into the mix, it's very hard to see what is, and 
yet you do not say this morning, yes clearly the ceasefire has been breached. 


REID:                        Because I think there 
are two things that you haven't said there. The first is let's be quite 
plain that violence is occurring on both sides, Catholic families are being 
attacked as well as Protestant families, it is a terrible tragedy. The 
series of riots that have been going on, some of them for almost two centuries 
incidentally result in terrible tragedy on both sides of this community, 
let's be under no doubts about that. That some of the comments made about 
attacks on Catholic families over the past year and recently are just as 
true as the comments about the attacks on Protestants. 

                              The second is, as 
regards Castlereagh there is a police investigation and judicial process 
going on. As regards the charges being brought against someone for targetting 
information, that judicial process is going on, as regards Colombia, there 
is a judicial process yet to take place.  It is not open to me to act on 
a whim, to direct the police to do certain things for political reasons 
or to pre-judge any of those judicial processes and therefore I can't say 
definitely in any of these cases until the evidence is produced and the 
decision is reached at the end of due process. What I can say is the fact 
that these allegations are being made is obviously undermining the confidence 
in the journey that we have undertaken and therefore it is absolutely essential 
even without these being concluded to say to all of the parties involved 
in it that although it is true that the IRA have come a huge distance, 
there's no doubt about that, over the past eight or so years, that it is 
necessary to be assured, not only that a cease-fire is in tact, but that 
the preparations associated with a breach of the cease-fire in the future 
are not continuing.  And that above all I think, alongside the violence 
in the community which has to be dealt with by trying to de-escalate, and 
I appeal everyone to try and de-escalate that.   I welcome the Loyalist 
Commission's moves on that, saying they would not attack the other side, 
and deploring the attacks on the Catholic community and the police.  That 
is a step, I hope it gets a response, but apart from the difficulties in 
the community, we also have to be plain that this journey is continually 
moving as far as, not only terrorism, moving away from that, but the preparations 
for that terrorism.  And that is I think at the moment, one of the things 
which is undermining the confidence among not only Unionists, but others 
in the community, and it has to be addressed which is precisely why we 
have called the parties together.

HUMPHRYS:                    Indeed, but you say you 
cannot act precipitately, and investigations have to be conducted and concluded, 
and all the rest of it. You don't need any investigations to tell you what 
Sinn Fein thinks about attempts to murder a young man who wants to join 
the Northern Ireland police force.  Mitchel McLaughlin on this programme, 
exactly a week ago and Martin McGuinness again today, both of them flatly 
refusing  to condemn attempted murder.  That is about as clear as it could 
be isn't it?

REID:                        Well, I think that 
does Sinn Fein no service at all. I have been absolutely plain all along 
that those among the Nationalists and Republican community who have been 
asking for eighty years to have a police service in which they can participate 
as their right, now have that right, we are reforming and beginning a whole 
new beginning in policing in Northern Ireland, they now have to face up 
to their responsibilities. I utterly deplore and condemn whoever does these 
things, such cowardly and attempted murder of a young Catholic police recruit 
to a new police service in Northern Ireland and I wish that everyone else 
could find themselves in it to condemn that in the same way that I have 
done. If they haven't done, then of course that is up to them and people 
will make their own judgement. 

HUMPHRYS:                 Well, there's no if is there?

REID:                        It doesn't inspire 
confidence when people attempt not to address that - as I said - callous, 
cowardly and murderous attempt on a young man's life. 

HUMPHRYS:                    There's no if, they haven't 
and that's that so it gives you a very clear idea of what their view, their 
interpretation of a ceasefire is which would not be the case as the interpretation 
of the ceasefire by any other reasonable man. I would have thought. 

REID:                        One of the great 
problems John, in Northern Ireland is that whenever violence of this nature 
breaks out, a whole range of politicians are quick to point at the other 
side to condemn any attacks on their own community, but to be reticent 
about highlighting the attacks by their own community. That isn't true 
of all politicians here, but it's true of a great many. I condemn violence 
wherever it comes from, particularly violence that is obviously meant to 
achieve political ends, to stop young Catholics from joining the police 
force and I hope that all of the politicians in  Northern Ireland are now 
at the stage where they can say, that wherever the violence comes from, 
whether it's from their own community or from the others, whenever murderous 
attempts are made to impose political objectives on people in Northern 
Ireland, that they are to be utterly condemned.  And that is where we have 
got to get to, I believe this process has brought enormous benefits to 
the people of Northern Ireland, there's no question in my mind about that, 
in the lives saved and the jobs created and the security that it's given 
to hundreds of thousands of people who have always felt they couldn't go 
out of an evening into Belfast or into other towns. But there is a long 
way to go in it and there's no stopping at any half way house - it has 
to continue. 

HUMPHRYS:                    And the trouble it, David 
Trimble, you heard him say there, believes that keeping that process going, 
means that keeping the peace and ensuring that the ceasefires are genuine 
ceasefires, are subordinated to that process and you can understand why 
they feel isolated. 

REID:                        Well, I can understand 
David's frustration and as I said, I can understand that frustration particularly 
when those who criticise him are people who never put forward any other 
alternative. He believes, as I believe, and I hope every party to this 
Agreement believes, that this is not only the best way to achieve a peaceful, 
democratic Northern Ireland, it's the only way.  But no-one thought it 
would be without great difficulties and those difficulties don't get easier. 
As we go on the contradictions sharpen and people must be under no illusions 
that they can engage not only in politics but in the government of Northern 
Ireland and at the same time, stay at some half-way stage where there is 
a level of paramilitary activity which will be acceptable to all the elements 
involved, there won't be. 

HUMPHRYS:                    Therefore, are you prepared 
to say to David Trimble, to save him from having to take the very serious 
steps that he threatened so clearly here this morning, are you prepared 
to say to him: 'yeah, we will take some sanctions against Sinn Fein, maybe 
we will withdraw their Westminster privileges, send back to jail some of 
those people who have been blatantly breaking the ceasefire'.  Do something 
to give him something that he can take back to his party and say we can 
rescue this. Just do something, give him sanction. 

REID:                        Well, let me take 
the two things you've mentioned there. You know, you use the words of the 
opposition spokesman, the privileges at Westminster, there are no privileges 
that have been extended...

HUMPHRYS:                    You know what I mean, 
you know what I am referring to, we don't have very much time left I'm 
afraid, but you know what I am referring to. 

REID:                        But words are very 
important in this, aren't they. For a hundred and fifty years the same 
situation pertained, there weren't privileges then, they, Sinn Fein have 
been given those facilities in the House of Commons that have always existed 
up until four years ago. As far as the police are concerned, the police 
will pursue whoever it is that is breaking the law, whether they be Republican 
or Loyalist, whether they be Nationalist or Unionist, Catholic or Protestant, 
I can assure David there are no constraints on that; as far as those who 
are out on licence are concerned, if that licence is still there and they 
are breaching the terms of that licence, then they will be put to the Sentence 
Review Commission. But I cannot act on a whim, I cannot for political purposes 
start sticking people in jail because it suits me or gets rid of my frustration, 
that road was taken a number of years ago during the height of the Troubles 
with internment and it was a disaster. And can I say, last year the Republicans 
were demanding exactly the same thing of me, that whether or not I had 
the evidence I should put away Loyalists because of the number of bomb 
attacks that were going on.  So it's isn't as easy as that, but the largest 
sanction and the most disastrous sanction of all is if this process falls. 
If this process falls, then all of us have failed and that includes the 
leadership of Republicans as well.