JOHN HUMPHRYS:                    Another beleaguered 
party leader is David Trimble, the Ulster Unionist leader and Northern 
Ireland First Minister.  He survived yet another threat to his leadership 
yesterday but only by reaching a compromise with those in his party who 
are opposed to the peace process.  The opposition is led by Geoffrey Donaldson 
 whom many would prefer to see as leader. Mr Trimble has now set a deadline 
of January the eighteenth for the IRA to show that they are ending all 
terrorist activity.  But that could put the whole peace process in jeopardy. 
 Mr Trimble is in our Belfast studio.  Good afternoon Mr Trimble.

DAVID TRIMBLE:                Good day.

HUMPHRYS:                    You've actually given 
in haven't you, given in to those in your party who never supported the 
Good Friday Agreement, and in effect, Geoffrey Donaldson is now in control 
of the party, isn't he?

TRIMBLE:                    No that's not the case 
at all. In fact the proposal to engage in talks over the next three months 
and if they are not successful, then to resign was my own proposal and 
Mr. Donaldson's proposal was quite different, that was my proposal, and 
the reason why I put it forward was exactly for the same reason that throughout 
June and July I repeatedly told the Prime Minister that we simply couldn't 
go on the way we are at the moment, where the transition, and bear in mind, 
we only went into administration with Sinn Fein, the representatives of 
the Republican Movement, on the basis that the Republican Movement was 
going to abandon violence and commit itself to exclusively peaceful means, 
and we did it to facilitate a transition. Now quite clearly, this year, 
the transition has stopped and judging by the violence of the summer was 
regressing. Now we couldn't, we could not sustain that position. In June 
and July I was urging the Prime Minister to get matters sorted out, unfortunately, 
come September, the position is no better and with no prospect of it getting 
better and we just simply couldn't go on like that, that is why we felt 
it was necessary to set, as it were, this very clear position forward, 
it may very well cause a crisis, but then it will be a crisis similar to 
that caused when I resigned last year, again because of the failure of 
the Republican Movement to fulfil its obligations. So in effect, we're 
stuck with the same position as we were last year. It's a pity, but it's 
a consequence of the failure of Republicans to make progress.

HUMPHRYS:                    So what has to happen 
then to stop you resigning again? When you talk about the transition being 
completed this time, what are you talking about? Are you talking in effect 
about the disbandment of the IRA.

TRIMBLE:                    Well that should be the 
outcome. I mean if you commit yourself to exclusively peaceful and democratic 
means then that necessarily means an absence of paramilitaries. You can't 
say that you're committed to exclusively peaceful and democratic means 
if you're maintaining a private army and the private army is there, active 
operating and maintaining its capability, so it necessarily involves the 
agreement, and this is not me talking, this is the Belfast Agreement, which 
we entered into four years ago, it necessarily involves an end to paramilitarism 
in all its forms. Now we've had four years for this to happen, it's, insofar 
as it's happening, it's happening very slowly indeed and we're saying we've 
got to be in a position where it's demonstrably clear that we're approaching 
the end of the transition. Now, there may be a little bit of flexibility 
there, but let's be under no misunderstanding whatsoever, this isn't going 
to be sorted by a fudge. This can only be sorted by there being very clear 
unambiguous evidence of that transition approaching its end.

HUMPHRYS:                    And when you say a little 
bit of flexibility, again to be absolutely clear about this, should the 
IRA, the paramilitaries, be disbanded by January the eighteenth? Is that 
what you're saying? If they're not disbanded by January the eighteenth, 
you walk out?

TRIMBLE:                    If there is not a clear 
end to paramilitarism. Now, you can have that disbandment in a number of 
forms, in the nineteen-twenties, in the republic of what is now the Republic 
of Ireland, the old IRA turned itself into a comrades association, it could 
be that the people in the IRA move unequivocally into Sinn Fein and you 
know, devote themselves to purely democratic activities, and there may 
be other ways in which this can be done. I mean, that's what I mean about 
a certain amount of flexibility on this, but it's got to be clear, the 
agreement promised us a future that would operate by purely peaceful and 
democratic means, that's what I want to see, so I want to see the agreement 
fully implemented, the problem arises simply because Republicans weren't 
implementing the agreement.

HUMPHRYS:                    So no IRA, therefore 
it follows, no weapons in any bunkers, they'd all have to be cleared away 
and there would have to be demonstrable evidence of that.

TRIMBLE:                    That's right, and that's 
why we have a decommissioning process, and that decommissioning process 
as you know has so far produced very little, because the paramilitaries, 
and it's not just the IRA, the other paramilitaries are at fault in this 
too, they have only co-operated with the decommissioning process to a very 
limited extent. Clearly we want to see that speeded up.

HUMPHRYS:                    Well you say you want 
to see it speeded up? I thought you were telling me a moment ago, correct 
me if I'm wrong, that you want to see it completed by January the eighteenth, 
completed by January the eighteenth, otherwise you walk out?

TRIMBLE:                    There's no reason why 
that can't be done. There's absolutely no reason why...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...really?

TRIMBLE:                    ...there's no technical 
problem with this. The only problem...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...political problems...

TRIMBLE:                    ...the only problem has 
been a lack of will. The only problem has been that the paramilitaries 
haven't been prepared to do it, and if they're prepared to do it, there 
isn't a problem, and you can speak to John de Chastelain the Head of the 
Decommissioning Commission, and he'll confirm to you that from a point 
of view of actually doing it, it only takes, it'll only take a few weeks.

HUMPHRYS:                    But you're a practical 
politician, if above all else, can you seriously see Gerry Adams sitting 
down with the man who happens to be running the IRA at the moment and saying, 
look old boy, that's it, it's all up now, by January the eighth, we close 
it all down, we clear out all the bunkers, we get rid of it, I mean it's 
not going to happen is it?

TRIMBLE:                    Well over the last four 
years Mr Adams should have been telling the Republican Movement what they'd 
signed up to. Over the last four years Mr Adams should have been preparing 
them for the inevitable. And if has, then there isn't a problem, and if 
he hasn't, then obviously there's a problem. What is clear, what is absolutely 
clear, is that after the violence and the disturbances of the last summer, 
this process cannot be sustained as things stand at the moment...

HUMPHRYS:                    ...beyond January the 
eighteenth, so that if there is not complete decommissioning by January 
the eighteenth, you walk out of the government, that is your position?

TRIMBLE:                    John it took quite a bit 
of persuasion, to persuade people to give the process this further opportunity 
to succeed. The reality is because of the violence, because of the failure 
of Republicans, there has been a very serious leaching away of confidence 
in the process. People believe they've been fooled. People believe that 
there's never going to be change for the better. Now it's up to those who 
have been dragging their feet to remedy that and to show that it's going 
to succeed.

HUMPHRYS:                    Right so the answer to 
my question is yes, and, and Gerry Adams, when he says this is a wreckers 
charter, what he means of course is it wrecks the Good Friday Agreement 
in his terms and it's all over. The peace process is effectively then, 
this phase, this, this peace process the only one that we have, is at an 
end, isn't it?

TRIMBLE:                    Well Mr Adams and his 
friends said that last year before my resignation last year, so let's see 
what happens this time.

HUMPHRYS:                    Yes but you gave in last 
time. I mean, when I say, you gave in, there were concessions made last 
time, what you're saying this time, is no concessions, either they clear 
out all of those weapons or...

TRIMBLE:                    ...I didn't give in last 
time, sorry John, I didn't give in last time, I only went back into Office 
after decommissioning began.

HUMPHRYS:                    Quite. But this time...

TRIMBLE:                    ...now what has happened, 
that, that was a year, nearly a year ago, in the interval between, when 
we, we obtained after the first act of decommissioning on the basis that 
a decommissioning process had begun, and since then, in the eleven months 
since then, what, one further act? And then nothing? Now Mr Adams can't 
have that. He knows quite clearly that I resigned last year because of 
the failure of paramilitaries to decommission so they start decommissioning 
and then when I go back into Office they stop. Well there's only one consequence 
to that. I mean, if we're going to have this in/out, in/out process sobeit, 
but I would much prefer to see things being properly fixed and that is 
the objective we've set.

HUMPHRYS:                    David Trimble, thank 
you very much indeed.