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JOHN HUMPHRYS: So...a very clear message
there, the SDLP will not vote to throw Sinn Fein out of Northern Ireland's
Government. That is what the Unionists are demanding. So the suspension
of the whole thing - executive and assembly - seems inevitable. The hardliners
in the Ulster Unionist Party have been warning for a long time now that
Sinn Fein is not fully committed to the Good Friday Agreement which led
to devolved government. At the last meeting of their Party's assembly they
forced their leader, David Trimble, to take a tougher line. It seems they've
been vindicated ... but once they've taken it apart, will it be possible
to put it together again? The hardliners are led by the MP Jeffrey Donaldson
and he's in our Belfast studio.
Good afternoon Mr Donaldson.
JOHN HUMPHRYS: So...a very clear message
there, the SDLP will not vote to throw Sinn Fein out of Northern Ireland's
Government. That is what the Unionists are demanding. So the suspension
of the whole thing - Executive and Assembly - seems inevitable. The hardliners
in the Ulster Unionist Party have been warning for a long time now that
Sinn Fein is not fully committed to the Good Friday Agreement which led
to devolved government. At the last meeting of their Party's Assembly they
forced their leader, David Trimble, to take a tougher line. It seems they've
been vindicated ... but once they've taken it apart, will it be possible
to put it together again? The hardliners are led by the MP Jeffrey Donaldson
and he is in our Belfast studio.
Good afternoon Mr Donaldson.
DONALDSON Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: Do you support suspension? Do
you believe it is the only way to go now?
DONALDSON No, I don't think it's the only
way to go. I think that what would have been more preferable would have
been for the SDLP to join the other Democratic Parties in voting for the
exclusion of the party that is in default. I mean it's a sad indictment
on this process that all the people in Northern Ireland and all the political
parties are going to be punished now by the government because of the misdemeanours
of Sinn Fein IRA. We all suffer because one party has failed to honour
its obligations under the Agreement and has failed to make the commitment
to exclusively peaceful means.
HUMPHRYS The reality is that they
are not going to be thrown out obviously. We heard that again from Mr Durkan
there. So, given that there is no option is there. No option to suspension
that is, regrettable as it may be from your point of view.
DONALDSON Well, it seems that the government
has reached that conclusion and they've reached that conclusion because
I have to say the SDLP in spite of the evidence that is there, and there
is clear evidence. In my constituency John, prison officers and their families
are being visited and told that they're on a list that has fallen into
the hands of the IRA, that contains details of their home address, whether
or not they carry a personal protection weapon. Those people are at risk,
that's clear evidence that the IRA and Sinn Fein, and let's bear in mind
that the people who've been charged are very closely connected with Sinn
Fein, including their Head of Administration at Stormont. It's clear evidence,
unequivocal evidence, that the IRA Sinn Fein have failed to make the transition
to peace and democracy. Now in those circumstances, it's sad that the SDLP
lacks the moral courage to stand up with democratic parties and say we
want to continue with government in Northern Ireland, but until Sinn Fein
IRA have disbanded their paramilitary organisation, ended their terrorist
activities, they can't be part of that government.
HUMPHRYS But if Martin McGuinness
were to do what David Trimble called for this morning and that is himself
to resign. Would that be enough to persuade you to carry on?
DONALDSON Well, absolutely, and if Martin
McGuinness and Sinn Fein IRA had any moral courage at this time they would
take that step. They would recognise that what the IRA has done is wrong,
that it flies in the face of a commitment to exclusively peaceful and democratic
means, that it undermines the basis of trust which is essential in any
government and that until they are able to put that right, until we have
clear evidence that the IRA have disbanded, that they've ended their power
military and terrorist activities, then yes Sinn Fein should do the honourable
thing and step down. But, I don't think Sinn Fein are a party of honour
and that has been proven time and time again.
HUMPHRYS Neither do you realistically
believe that the IRA is going to be disbanded. Certainly not by Christmas,
what was it Gerry Adams said to me the other day, that's making a demand
that it'd happen by Christmas, is like wishing for Santa Claus as he put
it. It's not going to happen is it?
DONALDSON Well, that remains to be seen,
but I think what is absolutely clear that it is the bottom line. Why do
we need terrorist organisations in the new Northern Ireland. Why do Republicans
need the IRA? Why do we need the UVF and the UDA. And I think that people
are asking that question when these terrorist organisations are engaging
in organised crime on a wide scale and whether the political level they
are doing nothing but undermining the Peace Process and the political process,
and I think that we need answers to those questions. If the IRA are committed
to peace and to democracy, why are they continuing to target people? Why
they're continuing to engage in espionage against the government and other
political parties? Why are they doing so much to undermine trust and confidence
in Northern Ireland? Well, I think these are questions that do need to
be addressed and I think that the line is absolutely clear. And Bertie
Ahern, the Irish Prime Minister, when he was asked whether he would have
Sinn Fein in an Irish Government said no, not until the IRA has disbanded
and I think if it's good enough for Dublin, then it's good enough for Belfast
and Stormont as well.
HUMPHRYS Yes but you have to deal
with the real politick of this don't you as Mr Durkan said a moment ago.
You are going to have to compromise, as Gerry Adams once again put it,
when we get to putting all of this back together again, which of course
you will do one day, one has to hope anyway, Unionism will have to walk
back in again and that's true isn't it, you'll have to go back.
DONALDSON Well, we want to go back into
government, that is absolutely clear. But look in the context of an international
war against terrorism and look what happened last night in Bali. Does anyone
seriously believe or suggest that there can be a place for a fully armed
and active terrorist organisation at the heart of any democratic government,
surely not. And especially not in a Northern Ireland where we've suffered
thirty years of the kind of events we've seen tragically in Bali last night.
Now that the IRA have got to make a choice. John Reid said they can't ride
two horses, the Prime Minister said they've got to choose between democracy
and terrorism and that's absolutely right. The problem I have John is this;
that the rest of us are left in limbo land, that a political vacuum is
created until the IRA makes that decision. That's wrong.
HUMPHRYS And how long have they
got to make that decision?
DONALDSON Well, I would rather that they
made that decision today.
HUMPHRYS Sure, but they're not
going to make it today, so how long they got. Let's try and be realistic
about this. How long have they got?
DONALDSON Well, I don't know the answer
to that question, because the government have not told us for how long
they are going to suspend the institutions. The government have not told
us when the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly will be held. So
the question as to the time scale quite frankly is out of my hands. It's
been taken out of the hands of the political parties in Northern Ireland.
Our leverage has been removed because the Assembly is being suspended and
I think that's wrong. It's wrong that democratic parties like the Ulster
Unionists should be punished and that the people of Northern Ireland should
be punished simply because the IRA cannot let go of the past, can't let
go of its terrorism and its power military activities. I hope that it will
be sooner rather than later John, but as to the time scale. I just don't
know.
HUMPHRYS Jeffrey Donaldson, many
thanks.
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