ANDREW RAWNSLEY:              And I'm joined now by the former 
Conservative Cabinet Minister and Vice-President of the European Commission, 
Leon Brittan.

Is it possible, Leon Brittan, that we are witnessing the strange death 
of Tory England?

SIR LEON BRITTAN:            I don't think so.  The Labour 
Party was considered doomed when we beat them hollow in election after 
election in the 1980s and look where they are.  What we need...

RAWNSLEY:                    Not a great parallel 
for you of course because they spent eighteen years in opposition.

BRITTAN:                    They took a long time. 
I was going to say the question is how long it will take to get back, not 
whether we'll get back and what we need is cooler nerves and a less frenetic 
atmosphere and a longer timescale and a longer view.  The point is that 
the strategy that has been followed by the Party, I believe, has been roughly 
right, the tactics, as we've seen in the last week, have been pretty unfortunate.

RAWNSLEY:                    You say we need cooler 
nerves.  Now, who are you talking about, are you talking about Conservative 
MPs, or are you talking about the leader?  We heard a Conservative MP saying 
in public just now in the report what many of them are saying in private, 
that Iain Duncan Smith has to raise his game and he's only got until next 
summer to prove he is up to the job.  Is it his problem, has he created 
this febrile atmosphere you talked about?

BRITTAN:                    No, we all have to is 
the answer.

RAWNSLEY:                    Oh, you're all to blame?

BRITTAN:                    In a way, because Iain 
Duncan Smith has made mistakes, nobody's doubting that, himself as well, 
but he hasn't exactly had much support from the Party in the House of Commons 
and by all this kind of talk that we have of deadlines and timescales and 
so on and so forth, it doesn't help the Party.  You can't stop commentators 
and journalists doing it, but I think the Party itself ought not to join 
in.  One thing is quite clear, if anybody thinks that another contested 
leadership election with all the passions and disagreements that goes with 
that is the way to improve the position of the Conservative Party in the 
country, they really need to think again, that is not the way to do it.

RAWNSLEY:                    Let me be clear about 
this.  You're saying then that Iain Duncan Smith should remain safe as 
leader until the next election?

BRITTAN:                    No, I think Nigel Waterson's 
right ...

RAWNSLEY:                    Or are you not saying 
that?

BRITTAN:                    Nigel Waterson's right 
in this sense that politics move fast and you can never be sure of anything, 
but I think to talk about having a leadership election at this stage is 
a great mistake, what you need to do is quite clear.  You need to press 
the points made at the Party Conference, the new ideas on policy, on the 
public services, that's what you've got to stress...

RAWNSLEY:                    Okay...

BRITTAN:                    And then, of course, see 
how it goes.

RAWNSLEY:                    Ah, see how it goes at 
this stage.  So how long 
do you give Mr Duncan Smith?

BRITTAN:                    I'm not giving...it's 
not for me to give him or any...

RAWNSLEY:                    But you've a very experienced 
seasoned Conservative politician - how long do you think he's got?

BRITTAN:                    I don't think there's 
any particular period of time that he has got, or that the party has got, 
and I think the less you talk about periods of time, the less you talk 
about leadership elections and the more you talk about the actual issues, 
about the mistakes the Labour Government is doing...making, about the policies 
that were put forward at the Party Conference, that increases the chances 
of us making progress.  How quickly we make it, and how the leader will 
fare and how he will do, I think focusing on that is the best way of ensuring 
that we don't make the progress that I think we can make, faced with a 
very vulnerable Government and perfectly sensible policies except, of course, 
on Europe, where I do disagree with them...

RAWNSLEY:                    Yes, we'll come that 
in a minute.  You see, admire Mr Duncan Smith or not, the Conservative 
Party did elect him for a Parliament, he was elected by a majority of Tory 
members, what right have Tory MPs to reverse that decision before the next 
election, however he performs, whatever rating the Conservative Party gets 
in the polls, you're stuck with Mr Duncan Smith until the next election, 
aren't you?

BRITTAN:                    Well, it's not a question 
of stuck with him, he has been elected leader of the Party.  I have made 
it quite clear that I don't think a fresh election for the leadership of 
the Party...

RAWNSLEY:                    Just now.

BRITTAN:                    Or generally - I can't 
think of any situation in which an election for leadership of the Conservative 
Party is going to be a way forward.  On the other hand, you know, the Parliamentary 
Party are keeping, they see what's happening on a day to day basis and 
they have to take their responsibility to do what they think is in the 
interest of the Party.

RAWNSLEY:                    If that includes putting 
a revolver to Mr Duncan Smith's head and pressing the trigger?

BRITTAN:                    Well, I've just now said 
that I think having a leadership election isn't now going to help...

RAWNSLEY:                    Now?

BRITTAN:                    And I can't see any circumstances 
in the future where a contested election of that kind with somebody putting 
up against him is really going to help.

RAWNSLEY:                    You see you voted for 
your old friend Ken Clarke last time round, it was defeated then and by 
quite a large margin.  He was defeated the time before.  Twice now, Ken 
Clarke has been rejected by the Conservative Party.  Isn't it time your 
old friend retired gracefully from the scene because every time Ken Clarke 
talks about his continuing ambitions to lead the Tory Party, he simply 
undermines Mr Duncan Smith?

BRITTAN:                    But he doesn't keep talking 
about his ambitions.

RAWNSLEY:                    He did only the other 
day. He said he's got this hobby of running for leadership.

BRITTAN:                    What he said...well what 
he actually said is that he is not seeking the leadership of the Conservative 
Party but people like you keep pressing him and say...

RAWNSLEY:                    It is our job. 

BRITTAN:                    Of course it's your job 
but...to keep saying do you rule it out?, is it impossible?, is it inconceivable? 
 Well anyone who is seriously on the political stakes is not going to say 
that because the circumstances... you don't know what might arise and he 
has a perfectly honourable ambition, he's not pressing it, he's not pushing 
it, he's not part of a plot.  I think it was a mistake of Iain Duncan Smith 
to accuse those who voted on a particular issue of plotting, that was unsustainable 
and, of course, it's particularly difficult for a leader of the Party who 
made his reputation by voting again and again against John Major's Government 
to play the loyalty card.

RAWNSLEY:                    There we must leave it, 
I'm afraid, on that advice to Iain Duncan Smith.  Leon Brittan, thank you 
very much indeed.