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ON THE RECORD
ALEX SALMOND INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-2 DATE: 20.9.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: There's another party conference this week
the Scottish National Party. They ought to be pretty cheery about things
because they've been giving Labour a right run for their money in the run-up to
the elections for the new Scottish Parliament. But if people vote for the SNP
are they not in reality voting for an independent Scotland? The leader of the
party is Alex Salmond and he is in our Edinburgh studio.
Good afternoon to you, Mr Salmond.
ALEX SALMOND MP: Good afternoon, John.
HUMPHRYS: That's it, is it? Vote SNP - vote for
an independent Scotland.
SALMOND: Oh, I think, people are well aware that
the SNP is the independence Party and as you rightly say in your introduction,
support for the Scottish National Party has doubled over the last year.
However, support for independence is even higher. Indeed, the last five
opinion polls in Scotland all show majorities for independence, not for
devolution.
HUMPHRYS: So, anybody who does not want
independence should not vote for you?
SALMOND: No, I mean, we argue as all political
Parties do that everybody possible should vote for us. I'm interested in every
vote in Scotland, John. There's an exclusive for you.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I can't say I'm very surprised by
that. But, it's not a very honest approach, is it, that's the trouble.
SALMOND: No, of course, it's a very honest
approach. That's what all sensible political Parties do and what we say, of
course, is the question of independence will be determined in a referendum of
the Scottish people, where it'll be a specific question for and against
independence and, then, we'll get the result that the Scottish people want.
And, of course, as I mentioned to you, recent indications are that that result
would be Yes to independence.
HUMPHRYS: So, you want them to vote for you - even
if they do not want independence for Scotland. Now, knowing as they cast their
ballot that you're going to be spending the first - what? - two maybe three
years - if you happen to end up leading the Parliament, becoming the first
minister in Scotland-
SALMOND: Well I'll take that result John, that's
very kind of you.
HUMPHRYS: Well, there you are. I'm saying that if
that's what happens, if their result-if their vote means that that is
the result, you're going to be spending the first two, three years, I don't
know how long but a very long time, indeed - down in London negotiating for an
independence that they do not want. It's a rather odd background to their
vote, isn't it?
SALMOND: Not at all. I mean, firstly, we argue -
we're going to put forward a programme for administering the Scottish
Parliament - that's what we're in the process of doing at the present moment.
We, also, believe that the way to convert more people to independence is to
take a very positive approach and to run the powers that the Parliament has
very well because if you demonstrate that you can run some things well, like
Education or Health, then, a lot of people will conclude that you could run a
lot of things well like the economy, for example. So, our approach is entirely
positive. But, you know, last year when I was appearing in photographs with
Donald Dewar and Sean Connery these points were well understood. Indeed,
Donald Dewar in the House of Commons actually told me this is the process we
should go through. He said if you're ever in a position to do it, then, you
should put the case for independence to the people in a referendum and if you
win that referendum that'd be fair enough. So, I'm a wee bit surprised to find
the Labour Party whining now when we're following the advice they gave us last
year. It may be, of course, they didn't expect last year that we'd be in this
position this year.
HUMPHRYS: Well, or they were setting you up
because the problem is you say they'll look at Health.
SALMOND: (laughter)
HUMPHRYS: It has been known. When you talk about
running Scotland well - Education and Health and all the other things that
you're going to be doing - it's going to be quite difficult to do that, isn't
it? Because you're going to be so preoccupied with trying to get independence
for Scotland. That, after all, is your first priority. Bad enough, difficult
enough, running a country at the best of times but if you're trying to get
independence for that country at the same time - Boy! what a job!.
SALMOND: Yes, but where I disagree with you,
John, is that I don't see a conflict between the two themes. On the contrary-
HUMPHRYS: But one makes the other more difficult
is what I am saying.
SALMOND: No, I don't think so. See, I think, the
better you run the administration of the Scottish Parliament, then, the more
people you'll convert and build confidence in the concept of Scottish control.
That's why we're the most positive Party about the process which is going on in
Scotland. I think a lot of people in Scotland regard it as a process, a
process which is going to lead to Scottish independence. And, to some extent,
of course, the debate in Scottish politics is not really about that
destination. It's becoming a debate about time scales.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but the point I'm making, I don't
think you've addressed it still quite yet is that while you are trying to run
Scotland, to govern Scotland, you will, also, be negotiating its independence.
Now, that is a mammoth task by any means, by any measure. And, that is your
priority. It's going to be very difficult to pull it off?
SALMOND: Well, you say it's a mammoth task. I
mean, in Europe, for example, we had the question of the Czechs and the Slovaks
and that process took six months in total. Indeed, the basic decisions were
taken in the formula - well, in the formula for dividing assets and liabilities
took place in a single afternoon, incidentally.
HUMPHRYS: .. in an afternoon.
SALMOND: I'm not saying that. I'm just pointing
out that there was a six months process of negotiations in the Czech, in what
is now the Slovak republic. Now, Scotland and England are developed European
democracies, civic societies. The Czechs and the Slovaks were emerging from a
Communistic dictatorship. Are you actually seriously saying that the process
between Scotland and England as developed Western European societies would be
more complex or more difficult than the process of a country emerging from half
a century of Communist dictatorship?
HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm saying that we've never tried
it. So, we don't know. But, you can bet it's going to be pretty tricky.
SALMOND: Well, you say we've never tried it - not
between Scotland and England certainly but of course fifty countries have
negotiated their independence from London since the Second World War.
HUMPHRYS: Well, if we're talking of Zimbabwe
versus Britain there's a bit of a difference, isn't there?
SALMOND: No, no. We're talking about the process
of negotiating independence and I mean that's almost one a year, John. I have
to say to you, I spend a lot of time in London, as you're well aware, I've
never bumped into a delegate or Ambassador from any one of these countries who
wanted to negotiate their way back again.
HUMPHRYS: Well, that's a slightly separate point
but look. The other thing is this: you've got all these people voting for you,
many of whom - if you're going to get into power - will not, you've
acknowledged this, will not actually be voting for independence. You, then,
go down to London and you say to Tony Blair:OK, I'm Leader of the SNP - first
minister of Scotland. Now, I have a mandate to negotiate independence. You
don't actually know whether you really will have a mandate and Blair is
entitled to say to you: well, do you really? Because an awful lot of those
people who voted for you, encouraged to vote for you - even though they did not
want an independence for Scotland may have done so on that basis. So, how do
you prove your mandate?
SALMOND: Well, I do accept the premise of your
question. I mean I've already pointed out that while support for the SNP is
doubled to around forty per cent the latest indications are fully fifty-five
per cent of people in Scotland are supporting Scottish independence. Some
polls put it even higher. So, if you like, there's many more independence
voters not yet voting SNP as people who vote SNP but don't believe in
independence. But, this question has already been answered by the Labour
Party. It was answered by Donald Dewar last year. He said that the correct
thing to do is to test the issue in a referendum of the Scottish people. We're
prepared to do that and our policy is within the four-year term of a Scottish
Parliament if we lead) the administration, while we'll test the question
of independence in a referendum. And, the Scottish people will decide - both
if Scotland is moving to independence and the case of that transition. Now,
what on earth, John, could be fairer than that, whether you're John Humphrys or
Tony Blair?
HUMPHRYS: Heaven forfend! Now, the '97 Manifesto,
which was the last one that you produced, obviously. That puts you way to the
Left of New Labour. You've been resiling from many of those commitments,
haven't you?
SALMOND: No, I don't agree with that. I mean our
position in the political spectrum is - well I've called it Social Democracy
with a Scottish face. We've put forward a platform of enterprise, compassion,
democracy. We think that gives that Social Democratic combination, and we
think it's a combination that's very attractive to the Scottish people. Now,
it's hardly our fault if Tony Blair has turned the Labour Party into a
Christian Democratic Party effectively run from London.
HUMPHRYS: I'm not talking about him, I'm talking
about you.
SALMOND: Well, I let's whizz past the SNP in the
political spectrum, and we'll remain true to our beliefs and articulate the
vision of what we like to see in an independent Scotland, and we think we can
carry Scotland on that platform.
HUMPHRYS: But your beliefs in Ninety-Seven
included things like re-nationalising the railways; three pounds on the basic,
State Pension for a single person; restoring student grants; very very
expensive things indeed. We're talking about an awful lot of money here.
They're not still your beliefs are they?
SALMOND: Oh, I think you'll have to wait-
HUMPHRYS: They may be your beliefs - let me
re-phrase it - they may be your beliefs but they're not what you're committing
yourself to doing.
SALMOND: Well, we can hardly commit ourselves
to doing that in the Scottish Parliament Manifesto, since it wouldn't have
power over most of these things John, but if you wait until we produce the
manifesto then I think you'll be able to judge our manifesto for next year
against our manifesto for last year, and I think you'll find that while all
political Parties should develop their policies over a period of time, and
we're certainly not going to fight the next Election on our last Election
Manifesto - no-one does - I think you'll find there's a great deal of
similarity between the two documents 'cos we were very proud of our manifesto
from the last election, just as I suspect Scotland to be inspired and proud I
hope of the manifesto that the SNP present next May at the elections.
HUMPHRYS: Because your Treasury Spokesman John
Swinney said the Ninety-Seven Manifesto remains alive and kicking. Well, now
that rather implies you're still committed to those/that little list that I
gave you a minute ago.
SALMOND: Well, I have the advantage over you. I
was there when John said it. He said it remained live and kicking on the
Internet as indeed it does if you like to dial it up. And he said that of
course-
HUMPHRYS: Well, that's right because some people
said you'd withdrawn it from the Internet
SALMOND: Well, of course, exactly, and of course
we haven't. And you can check that for yourself today. I was a bit amused by
that of course, because the Labour Party in Scotland doesn't even have an
Internet site. So, I think that was an unwise debate for them to enter into,
but John was saying it was alive and kicking on the Internet.
HUMPHRYS: You'll be putting taxes up though, won't
you? You'd have to do that, wouldn't you?
SALMOND: Well, it's been our policy for some
considerable time - that we think that the better-off in society should bear a
larger burden in order to fund social services. We think that's a platform of
equality and fairness, and our suggestion for a top marginal rate, that's
including tax, national insurance and income tax is fifty per cent. We think
beyond fifty per cent, then, there is a possiblity of a disincentive effect,
and nobody sensible wants to do that.
HUMPHRYS: That's the top rate you said.
SALMOND: Yes, the top rate. We also argue for
lower business tax in Scotland because we think there's a lot of evidence that
the optimum position in getting the maximum out of revenue, development,
investment and jobs in Scotland is to have a rather lower business and
corporate taxation than we have at the present moment, and we think there's a
very effective model for the success of such a policy in Ireland at the present
moment, where of course the Irish government have reduced their corporation tax
over the nineteen-nineties, and also doubled their corporation tax revenue.
HUMPHRYS: What about the big one, the one that
really matter, the basic rate? You'd have to use that three-pence that you
were entitled under the rules to add on to the basic rate. You'd use that
would you?
SALMOND: Well, it interesting that you describe
it as the big one, because if you look well if you look in the Internet at the
manifesto from the last election you'll find we had no proposals to change the
basic rate of income tax. So for us it wasn't the big one at the last
election, but what we've said we'll do is we'll look and examine all of our
policy priorities for the new Scottish parliament, and once we're finished that
process of policy examination, once we've inspected the full Scottish Office
books which we haven't been given access to yet, then we'll take a decision on
whether or not we're going to use the tax raising powers and will present that
to the people in our manifesto. I think that's a process which is very fair.
HUMPHRYS: Alex Salmond , thanks very much indeed.
SALMOND: Thank you.
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