===================================================================================
....................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
ALUN MICHAEL INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 14.2.99
....................................................................................
JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well, Alun Michael is in our Cardiff
studio. Mr Michael, that's the point isn't it, you've been placed in an impossible
position here, haven't you, I mean, if you lose, there's been mortal damage done
to your political career but if you win you will not have legitimacy in the eyes
of the Welsh electorate.
ALUN MICHAEL MP: Well as this is all on the record,
can we put the record straight to start off with. I've lived and worked and been
involved in Welsh politics for over thirty years. I was one of those who campaigned
for devolution for an assembly back in the sixties and seventies, so my commitment
to a Welsh Assembly is lifelong.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but you didn't actually run
for the Assembly, you didn't put your name down for a seat in the Assembly this time
around, did you. You wanted to stay in Westminster, which is perfectly understandable,
you had a very good job in the Home Office, you were doing terribly well.
MICHAEL: No, John, that's not the way I've
ever approached politics. I came into politics, national politics, in the eighties
because I was angry at the way in which jobs and opportunity in the future were being
taken away from the unemployed young people that I worked with as a youth worker
here in Cardiff. I was also fascinated by the need to fill in the democratic deficit
in Wales and I was part of Neil Kinnock's front bench team when the idea of devolution
came back onto the agenda and I campaigned for it this time as I did in the seventies.
So I've always been...
HUMPHRYS: ..but you didn't run for the Assembly,
that's the point that I was making this time around, until now, when you had a chance
to run for the Assembly as others did, you didn't.
MICHAEL: At that time Ron Davies had led
us through the Election Campaign, the Referendum Campaign and was the right person
to lead the party in Wales. I was doing another job which is very important for Wales,
tackling crime as you know. Within forty-eight hours of being asked to be Secretary
of State for Wales, I went to the Prime Minister and said: I've taken a decision
which will involve me leaving the Cabinet table, it was actually the first day I'd
actually been at that Cabinet table, because I feel that the success of the Welsh
Assembly is the biggest and most important challenge and I should follow through
the work that I'll need to do over the next few months as the Secretary of State
for Wales, by seeking to become Labour's leader in the Assembly. That's a decision
incidentally that Donald Dewar made in Scotland and Ron Davies had made before.
HUMPHRYS: Sure and nobody is doubting your
commitment to devolution, that's perfectly clear but wild horses wouldn't have stopped
Ron Davies wanting to run for the Welsh Assembly, would they. I mean you took one
decision for perfectly good reasons, you've explained them, but they are different
from the road that Ron Davies decided to take, for instance, which is to run for
the Welsh Assembly.
MICHAEL: There wasn't a gap at that stage.
He decided to run for the leadership of the Assembly having looked at what needed
to be doing by the Secretary of State for Wales and the creation of the Assembly,
which, I mean, it's an absolutely crucial thing that we set up the Assembly properly,
that it's well lead, that it's effective. This isn't a beauty contest, or a popularity
contest. The question is: how do you make sure that you get a leader who will actually
help the Assembly and those sixteen new members to create a new type of politics
and to deliver for Wales, on the responsibilities which currently lie with the Secretary
of State for Wales.
HUMPHRYS: But it's much more than an apparatchik's
job this isn't it. It's more than a manager's job, you would be leading Wales, that's
the point. You would be the most important, powerful - you would be a symbolic figure
as well in Wales - hugely important. So, the question of how you win, if you win,
and it's by no means certain that you will win, the question of how you win is going
to be crucially important and a lot of people in Wales, as we heard in that film
are saying: actually it's a bit of a fix, this is old Labour at it again. Now, let's
take the union votes, as Terry Dignan explained, the electoral college is made up
of those three groups of people: the unions, the MPs and the candidates, and the
mass membership of the party. As far as the unions are concerned, most of them, the
most powerful of them have decided not to ballot their members. Those who did, in
UNISON, secured an overwhelming support for Rhodri Morgan. Now that is a very serious
problem for you isn't it, it's going to look like a fix.
MICHAEL: Can we separate out two things.
The first thing is that there's no doubt that Rhodri is popular. He's entertaining,
he's engaging, he's been a friend of my for years and incidentally one of the things
that we've made sure is that we haven't fallen out, nor attacked each other during
the course of this campaign. The second thing is, the means of deciding the election,
yes my opponents have sought to undermine if you like my credibility by somehow associating
me with a system that's been decided by the Wales Labour Party, not in London, not
by Tony Blair, for deciding this election. It includes those three elements, as you
say, those three elements were contained in the system because the Labour Party is
a family which includes individual members, trade unions and elected representatives.
Those three elements made up the electoral college that elected Tony Blair as the
leader of the Labour Party nationally. Now, it's the Wales Labour Party that decided
the method, it's very odd that a candidate should be asked continually during the
course of a race: would you like to make this race longer or shorter, would you like
to change the height of the hurdles that you have to jump over. I've said at the
beginning that I would accept whatever the Wales Labour Party decided. And actually
right at the beginning there were changes made to the rules under which Ron Davies
ran against Rhodri, which were actually calculated as it was seen, to make it more
likely that Rhodri would succeed.
HUMPHRYS: But this is the whole point isn't
it, because what you could have done, yeah the rules were set, no question about
that, but what you could have done is you could have said: I'd like some changes
as well, whether you make them or not is up to you, but let me put it on record that
I would prefer..
MICHAEL: I did John, I said that I thought
that every member of the Labour Party in Wales should have a voice in the election
and the..
HUMPHRYS: Ah, yes, I accept that of course,
and in one sense every member will have a voice, as you say, the third of the electoral
college will..
MICHAEL: Not only that..
HUMPHRYS: ..let me just finish the point
and then tell me where I'm wrong if I'm wrong. In the unions themselves, you could
have said: I would like -just as we did when we selected the leader of the Labour
Party Tony Blair - I would like every member of the unions, who are going to be in
this electoral college, to have a vote.
MICHAEL: Can I make the point that the weight
given to individual members was actually increased this time compared to the race
between Rhodri and Ron last year...
HUMPHRYS: ..but it's block vote isn't it..
MICHAEL: ...but it's for individual unions
to decide how they run their votes...
HUMPHRYS: ...you could have expressed a preference
is my point.
MICHAEL: ...as it was incidentally, John,
when the leadership of the party across the UK was decided. The - I also have to
say that if you look at the balloting of UNISON for instance, less than twenty per
cent of those entitled to vote, cast their vote. Whereas when it came to the AEU
ballot, Rhodri and myself had to go before a chamber full of experienced activists,
people active in the party, and in trade union activities who were able to cross
examine us as well as listening to us put across our case. So it was in many ways
more testing to have to come through that, than simply to wait to see what votes
come in on the basis of what people have seen on television.
HUMPHRYS: So, in other words what you're
saying is, you'd prefer the AEU method, that is to say a very small group of the
union bosses choosing the leader, rather than the union method where every member
had a vote. You say only twenty per cent - well fine, but that was about the same
proportion that voted for Tony Blair in the leadership election.
MICHAEL: I make no comment, I'm just saying....
HUMPHRYS: What I'm saying is you should have
made a comment, that's my point.
MICHAEL: Thank you John, but what I'm saying
is that it's ridiculous to say to people who are involved in a race that we should
be changing the rules continually throughout because we think one would suit us or
the other wouldn't. It's the rules of the Labour Party within that, in the individual
sections, the rules of the trade unions as how they cast their votes. Now, I understand
what's been going on here. Rhodri's camp has been saying it should be one member
one vote, because they count on his popularity rather than whether he stands the
test of the sort of cross-examination which I believe has been...
HUMPHRYS: Well you could have had both,.
You could have been cross examined and then put it to every member couldn't you?
That's happened, it happened, it happens at the General Election.
MICHAEL: It didn't happen in the case of
UNISON for instance. It did in the case of the AEU.
HUMPHRYS: Are you telling me that those people
who... sorry, but can I just put a point in there. Are you suggesting really that
the people in UNISON who voted didn't have a pretty clear idea of the arguments for
and against you and Rhodri Morgan? That's a bit patronising isn't it?
MICHAEL: I don't know John. I am saying
that there are different ways of deciding. Representative democracy is one. That
is the way that the AEU and a number of others chose. Different choices had been
made at different times, but this is about who is the best person to lead Wales,
and to have us arguing entirely about the methodology by which votes are cast I think
was quite a clever tactic, but it's actually who would make the best leader and trying
to enable people to make their own minds up by seeing us involved in debate, and
it's quite interesting, as we've gone through these husting sessions the atmosphere
as been quite different to the one that you've described. It's been one of the party
that wants to take a decision, yes, which knows the popularity of Rhodri, engages
with the things that we both say - I think we both swayed people during the course
of those debates - and a party that's actually quite serious about moving forward
to offer the people of Wales the leadership that only the Labour Party can offer
in the Assembly.
HUMPHRYS: But my point is, and it's a pretty
straightforward simple one, you could have removed a lot of these doubts if you had
said: I know what the rules are, I understand why they have been arrived at and the
process that went into that, but I Alun Michael, my own preference would have been
for every member of the unions each to have a vote. That's my preference. You could
have saved yourself an awful lot of bother if you had done that.
MICHAEL: I said right at the beginning that
my preference was for each individual member of the party to have a voice in this
election and for it to be a significant voice, and the whole weighting was shifted
in that direction John. Of course that's forgotten because of the noise that's gone
on since about the detail, about the way in which individual unions cast their ballots.
A lot of unions have gone to an enormous amount of trouble to have discussions in
branches and to undertake all sorts of consultations to actively involve their membership
in considering what the assembly means as we have. I mean there has never been such
an open and democratic process of meetings right across Wales giving individuals
the chance to come and cross examine both of the candidates. I mean it bears comparison
with the leadership election when Tony Blair became leader, except that there have
been far more chances per head of population, of people to come and hear both Rhodri
and myself....
HUMPHRYS: Except at the end of the process
only a handful of people actually got the casting vote in those unions. But let's
look also at the question of the second section within the electoral college and
that's MPs, MEPs and candidates. It isn't only same some, the trade unions who've
been squared in this sense, because the candidates chosen by the Welsh executive
itself - I understand that of course many candidates where chosen - well you're shaking
your head , but I'm just qualifying this - many candidates where chosen in the constituencies
of course, but others where chosen by the Welsh executive. Now, well, that is the
case, the top-up list was chosen by the Welsh executive, that's the way the system
works.
MICHAEL: No, the way the system works John
is that the individuals have to - and I know because I went through this process
in order to win my place as a candidate - the candidates had to go before a panel.
That panel made recommendations which was put to representatives of all the constituencies
in that region of Wales. In my case for instance the panel unanimously agreed that
I should be at the top of the list. What I understand is......
HUMPHRYS: Yeah.... But then when it was sent
back to your own region they said, 'well actually we don't like that list. We reject
it.' As three out of five regions did.
MICHAEL: No they didn't. There were arguments
about some of the people lower down on the list. There were objections from some
of.... from what I understand..... from some of.....
HUMPHRYS: Because they were your supporters.....
MICHAEL: No from Rhodri Morgan's supporters
against some of the people who were recommended on the basis of the quality of their
presentation and that is resolved by those recommendations having to go to the Welsh
Executive.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah... but what I'm saying, for
those people who are by now possibly getting a little bit puzzled about this is that
having been selected, those lists, this sort of top up list, the twenty extra candidates
went back to the regions, were sent back to the regions. Now three out of the five
regions of Wales said - 'We don't like those lists because we believe that it's a
fix for Alun Michael effectively'.
MICHAEL: I know that that is the spin that's
been put on it and I think this is a bit of effective misrepresentation by my opponents
and I can understand why it's being done John. But what actually happens is that
the individuals, and there were a lot of people interviewed, come before a panel
with the representatives of the individual constituencies in the region there in
the room. They were able to listen to how we responded to the questions and how
we put ourselves forward. You then had a suggestion from the panel on the basis
of who were the best to the people in that room. That was where there was a vote
which unanimously agreed that I and the second person that was recommended should
be the people who go forward. So there was no doubt or argument about that. In
the case of two of the five panels I believe there was some argument because in one
case it was an attempt to, I believe, this is what I'm told by Rhodri Morgan's supporters,
to prevent people from the Valleys coming onto the list, a very odd ploy it seems
to me, and on the other case objections to one or two other people. But the vast
majority of people who have gone onto the list there was no argument at all.
HUMPHRYS: Okay. Let's look at the third
section now then of this electoral college - the mass membership of the party. Now
here the polls are absolutely unanimous, they would prefer Rhodri Morgan. Is it
not essential for the man who becomes, and it's bound to be a man....... chose a
woman... the man who becomes the first Prime Minister of Wales that he should have
the support of the mass membership of the Labour party? Isn't that essential?
MICHAEL: Yes. Can I say firstly we don't
know what the votes have been cast and we won't know that until next Saturday.
HUMPHRYS: Oh indeed, that's quite true and
I'm looking at the opinion polls which are overwhelmingly in support of Rhodri Morgan.
MICHAEL: We have a number of opinion polls.
They're very interesting. They certainly show Rhodri as being more popular than
me. That's not surprising; he was a front bench spokesman on Welsh affairs in the
run up to the election whereas my period which was roughly the same period was a
couple of years earlier than that. Secondly, although that element of popularity
is there, what the polls show is that whichever of us wins the vote for the Labour
party in the election according to the opinion polls goes up. It goes up more if
it's Rhodri that becomes the leader than me but it goes up from a situation where
we're both standing.....
HUMPHRYS: Yeah - but it goes up an awful
lot more for Rhodri doesn't it than it does for you? It goes up to fifty-six per
cent or fifty-four per cent for you, ten per cent less for him......
MICHAEL: No. The difference is from two
per cent to seven per cent. But the point I'm making John is that actually there
is a will there I believe and it's very clear in the party, for instance yesterday
we had people from all over Wales for the local government conference. A very warm
positive atmosphere. And what I'm getting back from places like that, from individuals,
from groups you meet around the country is that people now want this to be decided
and whichever is the winner, Rhodri or myself, they will unite behind that.....and
we have both said as well that whichever is the winner, the other will help that
unity and unification within the party. I've said it and Rhodri's said it.
HUMPHRYS: But my main point here is that
for the first Prime Minister of Wales, I use the term Prime Minister, I know you're
not really Prime Minister, that's how everybody is thinking of it, for him to operate
effectively with the support of the people of Wales it is essential that he has the
support of the totality really at least of the Labour party membership. That's the
point I'm making. It is less likely that you will have that than that Rhodri Morgan
will have that.
MICHAEL: I don't believe that is the case.
I believe that - because you are putting it to me obviously - I believe that I will
have the support of the vast majority of the Labour Party if I succeed and incidentally
you've glossed over one element of support within the college, that is for MPs and
people in local government, people who've been involved in doing things and who've
worked with me over the years, and it's not insignificant the extent to their supporting
me, because they know that I'll deliver on the job in the Assembly as I have delivered
in every job that I have done, whether in youth work, or in local government or at
Westminster, over the years, and they believe that working with me, will deliver
more for the people of Wales, for individuals and communities than for my opponents.
HUMPHRYS: The problem you are facing though
is this, isn't it, whoever wins this election, a lot of damage has been done during
the campaign, we've heard people talking in that film about the way Peter Hain has
behaved, what's the expression 'personal antagonism' that he has shown towards Rhodri
Morgan. There has been a lot of bitterness, there's been a lot of blood spilt during
this campaign, it's going to be very difficult to unite the Labour Party again so
that it can fight those Assembly elections effectively.
MICHAEL: I think it has to be said that Peter
has been forced to respond to some of the whispering and background activities that
have gone on.
HUMPHRYS: It's been on both sides, I accept
that, but the damage has been done, that's my point.
MICHAEL: Oh yes, but, you know I don't put
the blame on Peter or those who have supported me. I think people need to acknowledge
some of the methods that have been used. But I think one of the things that pleases
me most is that in recent days, in Rhodri's supporters and by Rhodri personally,
there has been a calming down of some of those very damaging activities. And I think
it's quite clear that whatever happens next Saturday, we will now move forward as
a strong Labour Party, able to offer strong leadership in the Assembly and actually
with a very strong team. I'm very impressed with the candidates that are coming through
in the Assembly and the way in which it's quite clear from a lot of them that whoever
they are supporting, if they are supporting Rhodri rather than me, after the election
they will get on with being part of a team and that's what Wales needs, and that's
what Wales is asking for.
HUMPHRYS: I bet there are mornings when you
look in the mirror and you shave and you say: oh my God, I wish I'd stayed in the
Home Office?
MICHAEL: Well I dare say that happens sometimes
John when you come off national television, you think perhaps if you'd stayed on
the Penarth Times you'd have had a quiet life. But it's part of the challenge, you
have to take the blows. I don't deny that I feel bruised by some of the attacks that
have been..that have taken place on me in recent weeks. Some of the things that
have been done to try to sort of undermine my standing, but I believe that at the
end of the day, the important thing, the important measure will be what we deliver
for the people of Wales. It's quite clear that people in Wales want to see the Labour
Party succeed. You've actually seen votes for the Labour Party increase since the
General Election and indeed in many ways, I think Rhodri and myself have increased
the awareness of the Assembly and how important it is as a result of this contest.
And I think if we can come out of it with a Labour Party and ourselves saying: okay,
there have been bruises and damages but we are going to get on with the job of delivering
the things that the people of Wales want, then I believe that that will deliver it's
reward in the fullness of time.
HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, thanks very much
indeed for joining us.
MICHAEL: Thank you.
6
FoLdEd
|